UKH

New measures aimed at improving safety at Piers Gill have been ageed. The area is an accident black spot, where walkers on the ever-busy Corridor Route to and from Scafell Pike pass close to the top of the ravine, and where in poor visibility the correct route is not always obvious.   

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What a sad state of affairs. It's a bit like bolting a classic VS on Stanage, and the thin end of the wedge arguments apply here too.

Sad that it's considered necessary but the measures themselves don't sound too bad. A waymarking cairn is exactly what they're "designed" for.

Hopefully it doesn't become a precedent for ever decreasing standards, but unfortunately it appears that the number of numpties on the fells is only going in one direction.

I was expecting to be horrified by this based on the headlines, but it sounds like they've done it fairly sensitively. Mountain Rescue people don't tend to be health and safety obsessed nanny state types, and are always going to be people with a great love and respect for the outdoors and the traditions around it, so I'm inclined to think they must have pretty real concerns about the location if they're going along with this. 

The 'safety signage' in the headline seems to refer to a single sign fairly tucked away at a point where someone has already gone quite wrong and is in imminent danger. I don't love this idea, but hopefully it is as discreet as they've suggested. The rest, in more obvious locations (a cairn and some boulders) sound pretty in keeping with the general mountain environment in the area.

Disclaimer: I'm not familiar with the precise locations, so perhaps I've let myself be overly reassured by misleading descriptions of the proposal?

If this is satire you’re a genius.

Had to check to see it wasn’t April…

I think this sounds like a sensible and moderate reaction to what has become a significant problem this year.  For some additional context to people who don't know the area, on every day of the summer this route and area is swarming with people who don't have a map, don't have appropriate kit and frankly don't know where they are.  Some of them know they are on the corridor route, and they are going up 'scafell'.  Those in this situation seem increasingly likely to go down into the corridor they see on the descent.  This corridor turns into Piers Gill down a series of increasingly dangerous scrambles.  By the time people realise their mistake they are f****d.  I don't remember the stats but the number of rescues that MR have had to do already this year for exactly this scenario is huge.  Something had to be done and unless we are going to educate the whole of the country about the risks of this specific spot (which MR have tried to do), this seems a good option.

Is it the thin end of the wedge - perhaps, but it is a really unique problem in the british hills, in that so many people seem to make exactly this mistake. 

Perhaps we should rename the corridor route as the 'don't go into the dark and narrow gully route'. That could also help.

Yes, like all the best April's fools its almost believable.

yes, but you aren't the one who has to turn out in shitty conditions and sort out the problems!

Its high time some classics at Stanage were bolted, great idea.

That is a brilliant idea, for sheer amusement value. The few times I’ve done the Corridor Route (years ago) I don’t recall any compulsion to go into any ‘dark and narrow gully’. I remember it as being well-documented, and a fairly straightforward and obvious path, all the way. (Rather a long way, IIRC).

Exactly. 

Surely it's not just about making things safer for novice walkers, so much as making life a lot easier for mountain rescue? 

I'd rather they're spared multiple avoidable trips out so they're available for someone else's heart attack, personally. 

It is a problem which will get worse, we have an ever expanding population who just never navigate with a map anywhere, no road atlas, a-z etc.. so even when they have a map, a 90 degree junction choice, they have zero idea how to orientate a map to the ground, that's the mistake they shouldn't even be there on the hill, not the fact they turned down there. 

Sadly, it is what it is and this is the least evasive measure that could easily save somebody's life, or prevent serious injury in the future. 

If the local mountain rescue support this, then that’s good enough for me.

it’s a fine balance that needs to be found in such cases and I trust those who know the problem, know the area, and value the environment to handle this tricky problem sensitively.

I thought the same when I saw the headline but actually the article shows this is being done sensitively and sensibly

The headline is a bit clickbaity.

In reply to UKC/UKH News:

it would be interesting to know a bit more about the background here...
-Any trend or commnality in those ending up in that 'room of gloom'?...There has definitely been a shift in demographic and incident numbers (there is an assumed link there) for most MR teams in honeypot areas with more folks getting out since COVID, which is great but often they can be less clued up (in some cases that is being flattering!...several teams are now doing in excess of 150 callouts a year esp. noteworthy in 'tik tok' locations.
-How much is N3Peakers? Most will do the Scafell pike bit at night...and while veering N. at Lingmell col is a fundamental error (if you are returning to Wasdale Head) and we all know that errors like this have a tendency to cascade and compound. The notion of a cairn or short limb of well placed cairns around the neck of Piers gill ain't a terrible blot on the landscape in the scheme of things...theres plenty spare on the summit plateau which is littered in dozens of the feckers (most of which are less useful than useful)! 
-How we engage, promote and build in a bit of resilence for our newer beds fellows enjoying the hills  is the real challenge?...Communication is different now...a lot of us came into the outdoors under the wings of peers be it organisations like scouts, or parents or clubs or others, and have developed our 'rules of engagement and skills'...and we know its not what you are wearing on your feet that really matters its whos wearing it that makes the dfference. There are a lot of folks now who are brought to it by SoMe and the thing to be seen to doing, (I'm sure if you removed the opportunity to post a picture or video of being somewhere and im sure the numbers would be different) ...All of this isnt terrible its great but it brings a different baseline.
The whole Adventure Smart campaign while laudable is using mechanisms that are unlikley to reach this audience to effect  a change in behaviour and outcomes...Wasdale (who were one of the principal advocates of it) has reported a significant increase in its incident numbers since Adventure Smart was pushed out...so does it actually make a difference? (theres a lot of money gone into it so it prob. worth knowing). The SoMe and messaging going out by the like of Adventure Smart is almost certainly to a converted auidence.....we are putting out messages on 'Question Time' while  a lot of our audience are watching Love Island.
Personally I have long accepted some places have become (or need to become) sacrificial lambs, so long as the dumbing down is proportionate its no bad thing if it gets more people out.

Actually he does...but in a different area...

 

You're asking a lot of a quick news report! But these are good questions and deserve a longer and more considered treatment - we'll have a think about that.

I'm just going to mention the cairns on Ben Nevis as something similar.

What is SoMe and Adventure Smart? 

I think one of the special things about the UK hills is how little they are signed and marked, but unfortunately this measure seems necessary to help prevent avoidable tragedies from continuing to occur.

Someone in another thread linked this nav error to navigation software people are using... maybe All Trails? I don't have that software, so can't check it out, but the suggestion was that there is an error in a route map.

I do think these problems raise bigger questions, and personally I think it would be good to see a some more educational opportunities for school children that are very different from DofE, focusing on:

- making the outdoors accessible to all (e.g. don't make carrying a 15kg sack for 4 days a prerequisite... and get rid of the nationalism/king and country crap)

- drilling nav skills

- movement skills on steeper ground (many literally crawl down bits of the Corridor Route)

- drilling etiquette and ethics of outdoors

- education about flora and fauna

- involvement in conservation projects.

None of this is currently served by DofE and Scouts is also a mixed bag. To say we care so much about the outdoors, there is little investment in outdoors education.

Adventure Smart is this campaign: https://www.adventuresmart.uk/

I would guess SoMe is what the cool kids call social media, i.e. the social media output of the Adventure Smart Campaign? Are they reaching their target audience and if so, is the target audience actually taking on board the message?

As much as I would love to use this as an opportunity to pour scorn on three peakers......

I think this is unlikely to be the main cause. They usually take the same route up and down and the path from the main ascent/descent cutting NE (in descent) to the corridor route is a lot less distinct. I guess Wasdale MRT would know though?

When walking up for a weekend of climbing on Scafell I was surprised at the number of people who, not only didn't have a map, but had NO means of navigation and were just blindly following the path which, when we broke right up the path to Mickledore, caused panic in the ranks.

Yeah I'd never heard of SoMe. I was aware of Adventure Smart and often wanted a really simple resource to share with people who might not know what they don't know. 

The problem isn't just people being ignorant. It's that there are social media groups where people are spreading that ignorance. I recently joined one in the Peak where folk are recommending All Trails and the like and presumably think that *is* using a map and being prepared (then got caught out up Kinder). If I hadn't done DofE as a kid and then met some outdoorsy people in my 20s, would I actually know any better? 

The best I can suggest is not hiving ourselves off into a bellicose us v them, but actually joining those conversations and gentling pointing out better information.

I've joined at various times (normally just before I was going) Facebook groups called I think just "Scafell Pike", "Helvellyn" and "Ben Nevis Conditions". I haven't left them out of a mix of horrified interest in the sometimes car-crash like content, and other times thinking that occasionally I can genuinely and quickly help people out by point them towards some useful basic info that might help them not get into proper trouble. But as result I'm very much NOT surprised by the things you say above!

I do worry that there are some people who may well just walk past these new signs, just as 1000s seem to be walking past the signs each year at the bottom of the Ben and Yr Wdyffa saying that you NEED ice axe and crampons when doing the peaks in winter conditions.

I'll hold my hands up and say I almost got caught out the first time I came down the Corridor Route. I was alone and was a pretty novice fell runner who'd done very little hill walking or map reading up to that point, always leaving crag nav to my much more experienced partner. The path jinks off to the right at the top of Piers Gill and I definitely remember stopping and having a double take as the way ahead looked dangerous but I hadn't spotted the path veering off to the right. The right way was obvious once I'd got my map out and looked around properly but I can see how people make mistakes here. So I'm not averse to some subtle signage that means MRT have fewer callouts for this specific nav error.

I can't see a warning sign spoiling anyones day out on the fells.  It might just save a life, though.

Warning signs spoil my days out on the hill. I go to see pristine environments unspoilt by nanny state people - who do their dreadful spoiliation for the best of reasons, they say. Let people have accidents. It's called personal responsibility. If volunteer organisations get pissed off at their workload then - stop volunteering. Once in place wedge thin ends never seem to get removed. They just get thicker because their are always more and more clowns who seem to need the effing obvious pointing out and nanny staters just seem to love to spoil the environment for everyone else to save the clowns from making mistakes. 

I don’t think a small sign would do much harm, but it does seem extraordinary given that people have been using this well-known route in huge numbers for well over a century without it being deemed necessary.

Really!? When I did it (admittedly 30 years ago) all that was at the core of the outdoor stuff.

Not in the Lakes you don't!

When did you last go up Scafell Pike? There's been the MRT box on the Mickledoor for decades, should that be removed too?

Telling MRT volunteers to not volunteer if they don't like repeatedly rescuing people (or recovering bodies) from the same place, is I suppose a defendable position if harsh. But If you break an ankle or have some sort of medical incident whilst climbing or walking are you happy with that being, in the worst case, potentially fatal?

LOL. What about the made paths and cairns?

This sort of thing?

I'm sure it depends on individuals at different schools/other host organisations, and varies somewhat, but although there will certainly be one or two sessions on map reading and how to look after yourself, my impression is that actual instruction is very thin. My memory (albeit, also 20 odd years ago) is of basically being left to get on with it... which was great for me! But, I took to map reading and hulking a sack around the hills very naturally. I feel that a lot of people who are less confident in their abilities would be put off by the physical challenge of carrying everything in their sacks for multiple days; are very likely to leave nav to more confident peers; and learn little to nothing about the environments they are traversing. I also imagine the royalty aspect only confirms in some people's minds the subconscious idea that the outdoors is for wealthy white people. Anyway, if someone with more knowledge wants to offer a different opinion, that would be interesting to hear.

To some extent I'm a bit surprised by this - there's an ok path that goes sort of parallel to Piers Gill starting from the Corridor Route - you can see it quite clearly on the photo in the article - stays on the north side of the Gill. It's not as much of a stroll as the Corridor Route, but it's a reasonable path.

So are people going down that path and getting into difficulty, or are they actually going down the Gill - which looks pretty horrendous and getting into difficulty down there would be no surprise.

Of course if people go down that path by mistake, they're going to end up well below Styhead which would be a bit of a pain if they've come from Borrowdale, but will have cut the corner off if they're going back to Wasdale Head.

This is all supposing good weather conditions - if the clag comes in then I can understand people getting out of their depth pretty quickly up there regardless of which path they're on or meant to be on.

It would be interesting to know whether these incidents are;

1. On the Piers Gill path or in Piers Gill itself
2. In good weather or in the clag

Very different experience. We certainly wouldn't have been let out without everyone being able to navigate etc.

The self sufficient thing is sort of key, so if walking carrying stuff clearly needed. I think e.g. sea kayaking is an option, which would clearly solve that aspect.

You go to Scafell from Borrowdale for a pristine environment? Seriously?

There are pristine bits in the Lakes (assuming you basically mean where it's not obvious that the hordes have descended), but round Scafell Pikes, difficult, can't think of anywhere where you can't see at least some of our erosion in one direction or other.

It is however easy to get to nice bits of the Lakes where there's nobody else around. Even round Scafell Pikes, even on a sunny summer's day.

Recently, several incidents with people ending up lost/stuck in the gill itself. It’s an awful place to end up, and hard to search. Clag question is harder to answer but certainly contributes.

What I find amazing is how many folks seem to schedule and walk up scafell pike for a certain day and go for it in awful conditions at all times of the year. I guess if you have limited experience of the fells you don’t have a reference for what the forecast weather actually feels like on rough terrain 700m+ above the valley.

Nobody could claim it is pristine. The relevant distinction is between stuff done or put there for the purposes of dumbing down self-reliance and stuff put there or done for other reasons (which may or may not have an incidental dumbing down effect).

Ah, getting into difficulties once in the gill is sort of excusable, bits of it looked horrendous from the path above. Is it a graded scramble?

Edit: I see it's an epic MS, possibly easier to descend with abseils. Not walking terrain.

I was just about to post your 2nd one but then I was in the picture too. I guess it would be an exciting descent down howling ridge.

DofE didn't seem to work very well with you if it's secret royalist propaganda! :⁠-⁠) 

Spending a lot of time with 14 and 15 year olds, I suspect you might be significantly overestimating their ability to even know what DofE stands for let alone know who the DofE was (is there a new one now?) and what he represented. Seeing DofE operate in east Sheffield school serving a deprived part of the city, at least when my mate Si was running it, he seemed to be mainly getting loads of hijab wearing Muslim girls out into the Peak, often for the first time away from their parents for a night, and everyone, including those conservative parents, seemed to think it was brilliant. 

There's a lot of shitty stuff in the world, but despite the bizarrely large GO Outdoors rucksacks and the seeming need to always have a large fluoro cover over them even on the hottest and driest of July weekends, I think Dof E is on the side of the angels. 

I think this might be satire that has gone over many heads

I take on board all that has been posted about the dangers lurking within Piers Ghyll, and the controversy about signage to help avoid potential accidents. The MR teams that are called to attend such events know the problems resulting from bad navigation by walkers descending the Corridor route off Scafell. If the weather conditions are poor  then this only adds to the problem. Most ascending Scafell will have no prior knowledge of these hidden dangers. I actually went over to Piers Ghyll last year to check out this danger and how easy it was to misread the terrain and head off down in the wrong direction. Although I have been on top of Scafell countless times by many different approaches this was my first time descending the Corridor route since 1964. I can recall that descent from within the Ghyll very clearly, as I was nearly killed by a dislodged boulder the size of a fridge dislodged by somebody above. I dived beneath as it bounced over my head. My teachers had got it wrong in the misty damp conditions prevalent at the time. I was very lucky, so welcome any initiative that will help deter similar accidents. Accident back-spots exist for a reason.

As I reascended back up the Ghyll I experienced 'Elvis leg' for the first time.

The Corrán Tuathail one seems to work, at least I have not heard of any incidents of walkers trying to descend Howling Ridge since it has been in place. Most the incidents on this mountain from reading some of Kerry mountain rescue reports seem to relate to people getting into difficulty on the Devils ladder, which is the normal but highly eroded route up the mountain. Funnily enough a few years back there was a proposal to improve the condition of this path to something more like the constructed paths you see in the UK like on Ben Nevis. The Irish equivalent of Fix the Fells even produced a report describing how it could be constructed as what it would look like. However it never got past the planning stage because there was opposition to this m, including some from the mountain rescue team that a better path would encourage more inexperienced people up the mountain. I don’t quite agree with this stance for such a popular mountain for safety and erosion reasons, i once had to shepherd a group of lads down the mountain one time who were a bit lost and mildly hypothermic. 

A lot of D of E is run by volunteers with little time to cover more than the basics of nav. I think it needs more investment rather than blaming for not doing a better job.

When I run D of E there is no 'king and country crap'. I've never seen this in any of the organisations I've worked with.

A big part of the expedition is ethics and wildlife etc. I think you do a disservice to our young people here. Most of the ones I've worked with wouldn't dream of treating the outdoors poorly, I think you would be pleased and impressed by their attitude towards the natural world.

The big fluro rucksac covers are so we can identify from a distance which group we can see. I give each group a different colour. It makes a lot of sense when you've got 6 or 8 teams out in a similar area and need to keep tabs on them. It makes it easy to check they are still in a group and allows you to monitor them without them losing their sense of independence. Our use of them has nothing to do with rain.

Sense of independence? The prevalent use of GPS trackers attached to groups hardly creates a sense of independence... Easy to be supervisor now and a sit in cafe. Shoving the rucksack covers on is equally lazy... Its not for them you do it it's for you. DoE has become self serving and, by cost, elitist. 

I'm glad to read a very positive account

Teachers like your friend who put their time into making things like this happen are definitely "on the side of the angels". But, I personally feel that an overhaul of the activities would make it more accessible and more useful.

I'm not blaming any volunteers: I entirely agree with you that they are doing an excellent job with limited resources, and what would help above all is more investment.

I also agree with you that most of the young people involved take their responsibilities seriously and treasure the opportunity to be in beautiful places. How many of them know the difference between a curlew and a lapwing, a stonechat and a meadow pippet? How many of them understand why such and such parcel of land has a new fence around it or has been involved in a debate about the socio-economic and environmental pressures on areas like Cumbria? Again, I'm not doing anyone down... but the DofE scheme is not ambitious at all in these areas and more investment to pay for MLs and Natural England professionals to help educate a new generation on our outdoor spaces would be extremely welcome.

As for the King and Country stuff, this is built into schools. Every bloody jubilee, marriage, death. As a young person it was a sufficient disincentive for me to abandon the award before completing. I imagine that there are people for whom it is off putting. Even if that's not true, I see the current image of DofE as more in line with a grueling Bear Gryllsesque SAS survival challenge, when it could be instead much more about welcoming people into becoming custodians of our beautiful natural world.

I'd prefer to see signage at the bottom and someone checking equipment and asking questions about experience. They sort of do this in New Zealand. If you want to go on some of the famous  routes such as the Kepler, and Routeburn tracks you have to book with the DOC in person. They check your gear and question your experience. The beggars made me buy a plastic emergency bivi bag even though I was carrying a Rab ridge raider for camping.

If I am ever tempted, please could someone remind me not to go to New Zealand then. 

It is a bit of a stretch to equate D of E to buying in to all that sort of stuff.

I don't think it should be either. There should be some physical challenge but not to the extent that it puts people off ever going in to the hills again. But equally, making it all about the environment is, I think, going to put off just as many. Obviously a "leave no trace" approach should be absolutely insisted on, but any other stuff should be much more tangential and certainly not rammed down their throats. The emphasis has to be on having a rewarding and enjoyable experience; unless they actually have memories of the outdoors as a nice place to be, they are unlikely to develop any lasting respect for it in their own time.

I can think of few things that would be more infuriating than being prevented from spending a few hours running up and down a hill in shorts and vest in good weather on the grounds that I didn't have the requisite gear to survive a winter storm.

I did both mentioned tracks in 2017 and don't recall any such nonsense. The so called Great Walks are vastly over-sanitised, however there are far better alternatives.

I'm not going to dispute that the majority of kids taking part are middle class and that perhaps puts off some other young people from participating. I was however surprised that you are implying things are getting worse because of cost. The majority of kids I help are disadvantaged and getting funding for them had become easier. According to their data 15% of current participants are living in poverty and 8% have additional needs, not great but I'd guess that's a significant improvement  from when I did it in the 80's 

Only replying to you as yours was the last post...a good one BTW.

I've been volunteering to train youngsters "expeditioning" Inc nav and a whole load of other skills besides for the last 20 years. Maybe around 40ish young people each year? A few thoughts based on that...

First, money or the lack of it is a big (perceived) barrier.  Kit is super expensive now. We do our best with foc second hand stuff, bulk discounts and even have funds set aside to provide support.  The tough bit is actually getting across to parents that we can help and to just talk to us. Far too many don't, and I totally get why they don't. I probably should know... (but don't) is there VAT on outdoor gear for young people? If there is, it should be removed. 

Once you get them out there, the youngsters interest in, and care for the outdoor environment is nothing short of awe inspiring.  Last year a group I was with came across a beautiful adder on the moor. The group had a definite underlying "lad" mentality at times,  but they were absolutely blown away by this lovely thing they had been so lucky to see. 

At the risk of being downbeat, what we have seen since covid is a massive reduction in numbers coming forward to be involved.  Simultaneously a huge increase in a range of anxiety issues amongst the young people that definitely wasn't so prevalent before. This is something wider society should be worried about (irony!).

I agree that would be a stretch, but I'm not making that stretch: I mean that schools more generally are always doing some crap celebration with bunting every time one of the royals lays an egg, as though instilling sycophantry in the young is a moral duty. On a different but related topic, history in schools should be renamed "nationalist myths 101", as it bears no relation to the actual study of actual history.

I completely agree with you that DofE shouldn't be all about the environment and should be primarily about good experiences. Again, I think you're willfully misinterpreting me. But, I think the "community" aspect is pretty nebulous and it would be better if those involved got more educational input and a more structred project that was actually relevant to UK landscapes/the outdoors.

Tbh I think people still go for it in poor conditions because if you're traveling and staying overnight (as most will be), accommodation in places like the Lakes is now so expensive, and often needs booking up so ridiculously far in advance (including the campsites! And the youth hostels are all but dead now), that folk are loathe to waste a weekend. 

I'm not saying they necessarily should go for it, but I understand why they do.

I only help out on the expedition side now, butI always thought the coummity aspect was covered more in the other sections, the criteria for which is pretty clearly set out. The bit I find nebulous is how to link a kid learning a new skill and volunteering in their local community is linked to the countryside, if they live in an inner City. 

We all have our own interests, I'd look at it the other way round. If more people with a deep understanding of the landscape/outdoors took a leaf out of the participants book and did a bit of volunteering, it would be good for everyone. National Service Award for pensioners? 

Your post is at odds with everything I've experienced both as a participant when younger and as a supervisor for the last 15years. Without wishing to seem rude, can I ask if you've had anything to do with D of E? Almost all adults that help enjoy being in the outdoors, that's why they are there. If you've got loads of groups out you are busy all day with no time for a cafe. If you've only got one or two out what's the issue with a cafe stop? Supports a bit of local business and it's my money that gets spent there not the kids, we don't get expenses paid! I've never seen any supervisor use a GPS tracker, maybe this is more common in private school with more money? What's the issue with the rucksack covers? Surely seeing a bunch of teenagers with a bright rucksack cover doesn't diminish your personal enjoyment of the countryside does it? You are correct that they are to make my life easier, I wouldn't call it 'lazy' though. They are children after all, it's a sense of independence we are giving them, not abandoning them to fend for themselves. I think they do feel very independent, what percentage of participants do you think would go for a walk of that distance on unfamiliar ground where they have to find their own way and camp out without their parents if it wasn't for D of E? How would you rather it was done differently?

Edit: sounds probably start a separate D of E thread, this is well off topic from the OP.

If you were a newbie I'd say "how touchingly naive", but you're not. UKC thread drifting off topic, shocking 😁

As for the different colour rucksack covers, great low tech idea 👍

I'm against nanny state, dumbing down, unnecessary elf 'n safety etc. But given this seems to be about a sign placed out of sight and a way marker cairn on a route and there seems to be some oddly strong reactions.

Before  you can say "knee-jerk" the posts have gone very UKC and equate it to bolting Stanage 😂

Would be interesting if there was a poll with 2 questions. One for whether the proposed solution is a good idea but the second question if the respondent is local, rescue team member, regular walker of the hill, or a remote commentator without a direct interest in the area.

No, I was simply responding in good faith to what you actually wrote. 

Came across a warning sign on Great How Crags once - a ridge above Coniston which ends in scrambly crags which I had come up, not a great idea in descent.  I have just noticed a path added to the OS 1:25k map heading north around this obstacle.

There was also a little wall built across the start of the false path leading down the spur into the crags - it was there on my first visit in 1997 (when I made that exact mistake despite knowing of the problem!) but it's been gone for some time, removed by people who object to such things. The wall (and probably the sign too) was put there by the local rescue team as they were having repeated shouts for walkers who had wandered off down the spur thinking they were on Swirl How and were thus starting down Prison Band - the two ridges are similar at the top and in mist the GHC summit bump is just separate enough to be easily mistaken for SH.

Whatever the merits of such signs and constructions, that one was an attempt to reduce the number of times when the team had to spend yet another afternoon or evening extricating someone who had gone wrong - but the folk who won't tolerate any such on-hill things appear to have won the day, and the callouts continue.

This whole business reminds me of the time when John Ellis Roberts got a pasting from the "serious" mountain press for placing a large fingerstone at the top of the Pyg track on Bwlch Glas.  Now everyone just assumes it's been there forever.

I see... you're just not a very nuanced reader. My apologies.

My reading is fine thanks.

It would be interesting to know where and in what decade you went to school and presumably formed this impression.

Our history covered.

Industrial revolution- railways mostly.

WW1-1939

Race relations South Africa and the USA 1900-1970

I'm unclear how this is a "nationalist myth!"

Is any part of this based on anything factual, or just you harrumphing?

What would you be saying if there was some accident where a group was caught in bad weather and something tragic happened because they couldn't be found quickly enough?  Some teacher would be hung out to dry and most schools would stop participating because of the liability.

I have heard of Apple AirTags being used to track groups (and previously groups had a mobile phone with them, sealed in a bag - evidence of tampering resulting in disqualification).  This seems to me a pretty good solution.  The group gains no advantage in terms of navigation but can easily be found if there's an emergency.

By 'self-serving' do you perhaps mean being mindful of safeguarding of inexperienced children in the care of their school?

I'm a bit late to this but I think it's a very Scafell-specific situation. Having been up there a couple of weeks ago, for the first time, I was gobsmacked by the crocodile of thousands going up the Scafell Pike path, and only handfuls of people on other paths and mountains despite the awesome weather. A bit of discreet help to prevent the worst of the numpty accidents (or the unlucky competent, let's be honest) seems pretty proportionate.

When thin ends of wedges are about to thicken the proponents often say it seems pretty proportionate. It's not, in my view. Take the damn signs away. They spoil the environment.