UKH

When microcams aren't really micro. Does anyone actually use this size of cam?

I'm talking purple dragonfly, red Alien sized gear, but since totems exist in this size too with a larger range and great holding power I can't really see much use for these millicams

Totems in small sizes are also effectively microcams. I'm not sure what you're going on about when you call them "millicams", but a cam in the purple size (e.g. red and grey aliens), but with a narrow head, is obviously going to be useful on lots of rock types. If narrow-headed cams were not so useful, Totems wouldn't have the following that they do. I used a grey alien for years and found it extremely useful for narrow slots and pockets.

have you fallen on it? I use my gold micro cam as a variable nut, i.e where there is zero chance of it ripping because the head just can't fit through the constriction. I'd never fall on a micro cam in a slot.

perhaps I'm being over cautions but small cams in limestone do tend to tear up the rock 

I guess my question is, since totems exist for narrow placements in the silver and purple size. Does anyone actually use the larger "micro"cams or do they just buy totems? But since they aren't actually micro I think they should be called millicams

I think "millicams" was just a reference to standard scientific units as a way of distinguishing cams that aren't the absolute smallest available from the really tiny ones. 

So the question is really "I think small totems are so good that I can't see the point of other cams covering the same sizes, does anyone use them?". Totems don't get really really tiny, so he's considering cams smaller than the black totem as the "true micros".

I've almost stopped carrying my smallest Dragons and an old Alpkit alien-clone since I got the 3 smallest Totems. But when I occasionally do need to carry extras in that range, there's something to be said for variety. Totems are very good, but occasionally something else might happen to fit better.

Plus there's the expense of Totems compared to other options, which will help keep the others in the game as well.

The answer is patently yes, or else DMM, Black Diamond, Wild Country, Metolius and Fixe would not be making cams in these sizes. And the offerings from other companies are also very good.

Ta for the explanation. My bafflement is more at it being such a tediously blinkered question. The original Aliens and Wild Country Zeros defined the concept of a "microcam" before Totems existed. It's like saying: "Does anyone actually use bicycles? I don't see the point of bicycles because we have electric bikes." Sometimes I feel people can't retain information for longer than a day.

Weird take. OP obviously hasn't forgotten that other small cams exist and pre-dated Totems, they're right there in the question. Names tend to evolve as the items they're referring to change, especially when there's no solid line distinguishing two categories in the first place. I expect the top of the size range that most climbers consider "micro" is probably smaller now than a couple of decades ago, as the bottom end of what sizes are actually effective has shrunk even smaller. I remember when a friend of mine first got a Wild Country Zero. I was astonished at how tiny it was and incredulous that it could hold a fall. But thinking back to the kind of placements it went in, it wouldn't seem that small these days. Probably at the low end of the Dragon range rather than needing a Dragonfly.

Most people who climb do not have Totems. It's a very blinkered question. If they'd written, "now I have Totems, I don't rack Aliens any more. Does anyone else?" I would understand. Maybe it's just me...

Some people like to carry a matching set of gear and it's also cheaper to buy a matching set. I'd have no problem climbing on a rack of WC Zeros up to green. They're arguably better than standard Dragons/C4s/Friends in small blue, silver, purple and green anyway, yet people still buy and use those in droves.  

I do.

I recently got BD Z4s in sizes 0.3 to 0.5 - the same sizes or equivalents being available for Dragons, Friends or Camalots too. So far I'm impressed. The ratio of fully open / fully closed is bigger than the equivalents. I prefer a narrower head width for smaller cams - even if the slot you are placing it in isn't narrow it is often easier to find a good spot for the cam. It feels difficult to explain but a wider head needs the slot to be consistently sized over a larger width.

Sorry I think that one is just you pal. Luke understands what I'm asking. 

For clarification,

Kilocams- stuff you'd need for orrible sized cracks, big silver DMM onwards

Cams- standard sizes you can buy and would rack often

Millicams- big micro cams that actually sit within the standard range of modern cams but have a narrower head and less range

Microcams- smaller than a blue dragon, friend, C4 etc

I didn't realise alpkit made alien clones, when did they stop? I know the Totem basics were well received as Alien clones (I've got the blue one) but I've never heard of the alpkit version.

I get your point, my red and yellow aliens are now very neglected now I also have totems (on top of my 'normal' set. They are still handy for stuff like quarried grit and peg scars when I want to double up.

Alpkit didn't make them, they distributed Fixe cams which were one of two companies to use the patent for the old alien cams.

they were exactly as original spec but have since updated them: https://fixehardware.com/index.php/fixe/climbing-hardware/fixe-alien-cams.h...

Though the original microcam was, of course, the Friend 1/2. I still struggle to think of it as "normal" and trustworthy rather than micro. All cams from my Friend 1/2 down are still racked on a separate gear loop.

Also as a comparison I'd guess it'd be a combination of weight and strength vs range.

DMM wins on price, weight, strength and usability of extendable sling. 

Totem wins on range and holding power in slick rock, plus getting rusty af.

I probably shouldn't have called them Alpkit cams, they were actually made by Fixe. Alpkit were just the most prominent (maybe exclusive?) UK seller for a long time. Looks like they've stopped now, which I hadn't realised.

I never had any original aliens or climbed with anyone who did, so I don't know how closely related they were. They shared the same general look and the name but maybe not the actual design. There were several iterations. They tended to get mixed reviews, but I'm not sure how much of that was due to them being actually inferior to the originals and how much was because other small cams had caught up and people had rose-tinted spectacles and expected aliens to still be way ahead of the rest of the field.

As someone who has overlapping dragonflies and C4s......

It depends what I am doing. I find the C4s in silver and purple more robust than their dragonfly equivalent and the wider head width seems more stable a placement in horizontal breaks, so for grit, for example, especially "mid grade" break to breaking I would prefer the C4s.

I also now like, despite finding it very annoying initially, the inexact mapping of the dragonflies to the C4s/Dragons, it gives a better chance of finding the perfect fit.

Horses for courses, though I do like the sound of some Totems, especially for limestone....

I live in limestone country so it was natural that I bought these over the larger micros when making a choice and my rack is mostly totems and wires for the harder stuff. But having read some comments I can see a use for them in quarried grit peg scars to double up the totems. I can imagine they also take up less space around the crack or hold than a totem because they are single stem which would definitely be a benefit on this terrain. 

I understand what you asked, but what you asked was:

"Does anyone use larger microcams or do they just use larger microcams made by Totem?"

To which the answer is clearly, yes, people do use larger microcams made by  companies other than Totem.

Anyway, apologies for my exasperated pedantry!

In answer to your original question - yes, I do. 

I suspect an allusion to SI sub-multiple prefixes; milli : 1/1000; micro : 1/1000000

In which case, cams smaller than size 0 might be considered millicams; 500 millicams, 300 millicams, etc. And microcams would be so small as to be just about invisible; even a 999 microcam would be 1/1000th of the size of a size 0 cam...

Don't encourage them. Just because it sounds scientific doesn't mean it's not absolute waffle.

My fairly standard rack includes a set of totems (dropping the 2-3 largest ones depending on the route), a set of dragons up to gold (dropping the larger ones potentially, though I’d normally have at least one green and one red and often also one gold) and the 4 smallest dragonflies (potentially dropping the 2 smallest ones). I don’t think there’s much point in having the larger dragonflies (above blue) if you have totems, apart from the silver one perhaps (or may be just get another black totem).

"Microcams" is equally just "waffle".

Why not 'minicams'...?

I'm not even going to bother. I've already wasted too much of my life on this absurd thread. I'll return to banging my head against the wall, which was, on reflection, both more valuable and more enjoyable.

So, your standard rack is:

Dragonflies: 4 off, green to blue

Dragons: 6 off, siler to blue

Totems: 7 off, black to orange

Which is 17 cams max, maybe 13 if you drop the 2 smallest dragonflies and biggest totems?

That's not dissimilar to my rack for hard multi-pitch tbh

Black totem to green totem 5 cams

red dragon to blue dragon 3 cams

Totem basic and red X4 2 cams

Double of purple to gold size 4 cams 

14 cams

But I'd also carry

1-11 wallnuts 

1-7 rocks

Set of offsets

Brass imps and offsets 

Obviously this doesn't all come with me on every route and I might add some doubles in bigger or smaller cams instead of the mid sizes if needed, but I think it's pretty standard for those who like being heavy but safe.

I have the dragonflies from red to blue and dragons from 00 (blue) upwards. The blue, silver and purple overlap but they're quite useful as the dragonfly blue is a different size to the dragon blue (the dragonfly is slightly smaller) plus they're a lot more flexible. On the downside is they can invert while the dragons won't. I'd rather have one of each than have pairs of the dragon blue, silver and purple.

Yes, except it’s small blue to gold dragons. Very rarely take a large blue dragon. Might drop the gold as well, so 12. I very rarely climb with a single set of cams. I would also usually carry 2 sets of wires (1-8 and 1-9), a set of offsets including brassies and a collection of wires up to 1. 18 draws / extenders is fairly standard, often more. Obviously depends on the route (single / multi pitch, length, grade) but I don’t usually climb short or very bold routes. 

Likewise.. I'm not climbing routes where 1kg is the difference between send or fail. If I thought it did, I'd try to optimise things a bit but I'd also look at reducing my own weight (and leave my shoes at the bottom and ab off instead of walking off), etc. I might even go the extreme length of having a poo first!

I've used the Z4's pretty much exclusively for the 0.75 to 0.3 down for a couple of years I did really like them as the narrow width worked better, particularly in a lot of limestone pockets. I also liked that they still had the same size range as the normal cams with the double axle

However they are significantly less durable with 3 out of 4 trigger wires failing within a couple of years and black diamond do not replace these. 

I've just brought my first totem which will hopefully hold up better!

Another option is these little beggers

https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/climbing/protection/camp_ball_nuts-3103

And yes I have taken a fall on the red one.

why Yes, the Red Alien is prolly my favourite cam.. it’s either that or old Orange Metolius Mastercam (so one size down from Said Red Alien). I find that both often seem to place nicer than my corresponding sized C4s or Dragons… in fact, I’m inclined to say that Dragons/C4s/Friends are good from one size up (so green 0.75 C4)… but flexible ”microcams” tend to be better on smaller sizes… and to be fair, the actual redused range is neglible in those off-fingers and smaller sizes… which is where having different brands of came might cone in handy…

Thanks for taking the time to respond. Being an old fart who mainly climbs with the same people it's always interesting to see what others are carrying. I think this has left me with a comparably "cam-light" approach due to my traditional British climbing upbringing, aka a tonne of nuts and a few cams.

Sound like I should buy some Totems........

As is said to dinodinosour, thanks for taking the time to respond. Interesting to see what others carry!

Don't get me wrong I love a wire too, sometimes to my partners disdain when they won't come out again and it's steep. This was what I placed on a route recently

Depends on the route and the rock type of course and can’t beat a well placed wire on solid rock. I probably set a personal record yesterday with 27 pieces in a single pitch, 14 of which were cams - was on North Stack Wall, so you place what you can and hope that some of it will hold…

I currently have Dragons in little blue to big blue and also the gold and red Dragonflys, there's a few times recently where I've found a little blue sized placement but the head of the Dragon was too wide to sit nicely. So very tempted to get the larger Dragonflys too.

Whilst on this topic, do many people use the little green Dragonfly much? On paper it's not that much smaller than the red so have never bothered buying one.

Honestly unless you're on something reyt hard or on hard slate/culm routes I don't think it's worth the purchase. I've got one and never used it, the red sized one has been plenty small enough for anything I've been on.

Having used the red a couple of times, I can't imagine using the green very often at all. The red does seem to find some decent places though, especially in schisty stuff in Polldbubh - but the small DMM blue dragon and dragonfly indisputably rule for Polldubh.

 

Almost looks like one of my pitches (including the walnut,rock,halfnut combo)

Black Totem would be ideal as well then!

Another +1 vote for Totems black, blue, yellow as the current state-of-the-art. However, I also agree with a few posters who say if you are doubling up in the "milli" sizes, then carrying something complementary rather than duplicates gives more scope. My take on this, on longer routes, is to add the smallest three BD offsets. This opens up a world of cunning possibilities. 

Cheers, Dom 

As I don't own any Aliens, Dragonflies or Totems, I have no idea what size you are talking about.