UKH

Obviously the answer will be Skoda Octavia 😏

Is the Yeti worth considering and what flavour Skoda, I’m looking at second hand 2015-2019?

any thoughts or alternatives 

I've always liked the Skoda Yeti, think it drives well just doesn't really have a boot unless you flop down the back seats (I base that entirely on carrying pads)

I think you can't go wrong with an Octavia or a Ford Mondeo estate as they don't make them anymore and they're pretty cheap!

Loved my Focus estate - not quite as big as the Mondeo, but huge boot.

Best car I've had recently was a VW Tiguan. You could move the back seats forwards to extend the boot a bit. Neat touch was you could fold the front passenger seat forwards to get an 8' load area - could get my kayak inside the car (more usually Ikea flat-pack wardrobes).

There's also a "+" version, if you need more space.

I've got a Yeti petrol automatic 2017, last year of production, I really like it. Can get 50 mpg with care. 

I made a sleeping base with four bits of  ply; remove rear seats, 9" high wooden storage boxes in the rear footwells, covered in thin foam. Comfortable for me at 1.79m. Bought bespoke Yeti window covers. 

Absolutely love my yeti but it’s always been 30 cm too short. Have a 2014 with the 1.9 and am yet to have any serious issues with it. Bought it second hand at 18,000 and currently at 193,000 km and running smooth. Although the timing belt is due for a change at its next service.

As pedro50 eludes to, if you remove the rear seats you get a load of space. You can also remove the middle seat to make more room for two passengers in the back. 

If I were to buy again I would probably be looking at the Octavia scout. But I’m planing on driving the yeti til the wheels fall off…

Seat Leon ST is a worthy alternative to the Octavia estate. I ended up with one as I couldn't find an Octavia to meet age/price/fuel requirements.

Too many unspecified parameters in there eg. budget, fuel efficiency, condition, trim level required, parts availability etc etc. From previous posts, I had you down for a bit of a petrol head, but maybe I'm misremembering!

BMW M3 X-Drive Touring

Golf R Estate is the one, enough space for any type of climbing trip, and always first at the crag. 👍

Maybe a step up or two from a base model with a little bit of ooomph, comfortably take three people plus kit to Skye from wales is the benchmark

If we're going down that route - Landrover Defender Octa?

Had to Google that. Looks like a fantastic bit of kit

That's going to give some rather fast cars a weeny surprise in any traffic light drag races - is it as easily nick-able as recent Range Rovers, etc.

2015 981 Cayman, manual.

You‘ll get two full racks in the front boot, sundries in the back one.  Take it slow and careful and you can do dirt tracks and off road parking just fine in the base model.  Not as quick as the Golf-R estate mooted up thread but incredibly more engaging to drive.  It’ll cost about 2.4x 2019 Octavias but it’ll hold value much better and may even become a collectors item soon enough.  Surprisingly low maintenance and reliable.

Although you’re crap out of luck if you want to take a bouldering mat with you…

I have a Skoda Yeti 2.0 Diesel and I absolutely love it.  Feels powerful and fast for long drives, whilst still remarkably agile for such a chunky car and very fuel efficient (around 50 mpg).   I have also made a simple fold-out 170 cm sleeping platform (similar to the sound of the one already described), and with the bespoke window blinds is a more comfortable option than camping for a night or two.

The boot is fairly large, but not as large as I had expected.  More deep than long.   The back seats are easy to remove, which then creates the space of a small van.

If you want a very large boot while still keeping the back seats, you might be better with a Skoda Fabia estate.

I think the Octavia estate will have approximately 100 litres more boot space with seats in place than the Fabia estate, whichever year you choose to compare.

You need an Audi TT if you want that too.

A shitbox you dont care about because spending money on going climbing is far more important

If going down this route make sure you have breakdown cover to reduce the ball ache when it breaks down unexpectedly.

I have been tempted in the direction of reliability after my van broke down in the southern Alps a few weeks ago, it's the first time I have had a properly nice feeling car! 

I bought a 2018 2.0 TDi SE-L estate last year. 50+mpg everywhere I go, even long trips to France. It has a big boot for bouldering mats or trips to B&Q/the tip. It's fast enough (though I am considering a remap). When it's clean (very rare), it's a very nice place to be, and Android Auto works a treat.

I don't plan to sleep in it, so not so worried about that. However it would be OK as I can fit 1.8m sheets of plywood in it easily without moving the front seats.

When searching I also looked for a Superb estate, but couldn't get one without huge miles on it. Also looked at BMW 5 series and Audi A6, but would have had to go 2-3 years older for similar money (meaning no Android Auto).

Yes similar thoughts as myself re. alternatives.

2l Ford Mondeo Estate. Best purchase I ever made.

VW Up! I could arrive late and still find a parking space.

Have you considered Volvo? I'm a big fan, particularly of the older V70 and just saw this D3 one on AutoTrader:

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202407111691548

It's relatively slow, but offers good value and a decent load capacity, plus it's had the timing belt replaced. Paying twice that asking price would get you a nice V90 with more bells and whistles but would definitely be thirstier and, strangely, has a smaller boot than the shorter V70.

Spec wise, you'll get more bang for your buck from a Superb than an Octavia (eg. heated seats) and an extra >200L storage with the back seats down.

If I could find anywhere to insure it at a reasonable price, I'd get a T5 petrol V70 import from Swann Motors in Bristol. They also have a couple of (very rare here) 2WD XC70's with the usual very high Japanese spec in excellent condition and low mileage.

One other alternative would be the E Class Merc. More expensive to keep and run / maintain but with higher residuals. I really like the A6 Avant as suggested earlier but find the seats too uncomfortable on long journeys and reading some comments in the VWAudi forums I'm not the only one.

I've been looking for a replacement estate for my current 2011 Passat for the past 6 months and have recently driven a few including a nice Volvo V60 which, right now, is a strong contender. Smaller than the V70 & V90 but this one had a very high spec and the D4 in it felt a lot peppier than a friend's D4 V90.

Citroen Berlingo/Peugeot Partner (same car). Easily the best climber's car I've ever had (I'd always had estates of various sizes before). Nice to drive, economical (diesel) and cavernous (I use mine as a small van). Only issue might be I've heard that with the latest models you can't lift back seats out (if so, I am gutted, because otherwise I'd buy another like a shot).

I've long had a V60 D3, and I'm a huge fan. I managed to eke out 67mpg the other week on a 400 mile motorway trip at 70mph, but 55-58mpg is more realistic on an everyday basis.  The boot is the right size for climbing, pretty sure you can get a standard mat in it lying flat.  It's remarkably comfortable to drive on long journeys too.

I had one that served me well for many years (though the 4x4 variant so about 42mpg). Was sorry to let it go but eventually went the EV route. If Skoda had made an electric Yeti I would have bought one on the spot.

We still have and love our (second) diesel Yeti. At one time we had two on the go but when we came to replace the older one, Skoda had stopped making them and we bought a Karoq diesel instead. A good car and highly recommended but sadly lacking the 'character' of a Yeti. Both are ideal for an outdoor lifestyle with plenty of room, bikes are a bit of a squash for the Yeti but can lie flat in the Karoq.

Ugly as sin though. If you're spending that kinda' cash you surely want it to look good as well?

The Defender? I really like the design, though the thought of doing 0-60 in 3.8s in what is basically a tank scares the bejesus out of me.

It's a fantasy though - I will never be spending £150k on a car.

Used to have a V70 and was a big fan

Totally agree. I know several people who have wished they'd never got rid of theirs. I had one for over ten years and when it finally came time to change it, I didn't really consider much else. 

530d. Touring version if you want to sleep in it. Nice, comfy, roomy, 4wd with a nice smooth 8 speed auto and reasonable economy.

The 330d is quicker and a bit more efficient but the boot isn't cavernous despite being big in its class. Buying again I'd get one with the sport seats.

jk

There's just no accounting for taste.

I don't think you're alone on that one

I have a V60 CC hybrid which I’m very happy with - get decent economy out of it for a 4x4. Isn’t as big in the boot as you’d think a Volvo estate would be thought.

Nissan Elgrand. Plenty of room, not too expensive and very comfortable. 

In reply:

I'm happy with my Citroen C4 GP 1.6Hdi (2013). Cheap, more boot space than estates, , luxurious ride and touching 60mpg on recent trip (no cheap road tax tho, but modern e diesels prob have their own issues and i don't need nav/touchscreens etc..)

What fuel economy do the Octavia owners get?

Honda Jazz, the car feels small but due to the shape can fit a lot of gear. Can easily carry 3 people and 4 pads with some of the rear seats folded down. 

Very cheap and efficient, low maintenance. 

Jo

No need to worry you'll only get a couple tries and it'll back at the dealers for repairs. 

The standard ones barely run 

Interesting to hear. Is yours one of the older models with the more curved rear side windows or the post 2018(?) face-lift ones?  I'd measured the one I test drove for length and while it was about 200mm shorter than my Passat (from inside the tailgate to the back of the driver's seat, it should still take a couple of e- bikes. I'm testing a V90 tomorrow though which i know has plenty of space to spare but I might take my bike with me and check the V60 again! 

Me neither. You'd have to be nuts to spend that sort of money on a JLR product! 

I was rather forced into replacing it - stereo head unit had packed up, various other bits were starting to go wrong, plus other personal circumstances at the time.

That’s prompted me - Dacia Logan. 
Huge boot space, cheap to run. I had one for 4 years and it never let me down.

Downside, the 900cc (turbo) petrol engine is a bit sluggish getting going! But if all you want is something to go from a to b and aren’t a petrolhead then it’s worth considering.

I think Volvo might contend that it was a bit more than a facelift on the V60 😁

I almost bought a V60 D5 manual - one of the older curved rear side window ones - the manuals are a bit rare; £30 road tax, 225 bhp, interesting 200k miles no problem 5 cylinder diesel still giving good fuel economy. But, to put it mildly, the car "dealer" was dodgy to the nth degree (like registered address being a demolished building quarter of a mile away being redeveloped) and I ran away ☹

What car for a climber?

Any car big enough to fit a couple of climbing packs. A Porsche or Vauxhall, it matters not a jot.

Get something pre-dinted. Saves loads of stress.

Scrap the Porsche reference. For under £30k you can't beat a Maserati Granturismo.  4.7 V8 engine. Terrible for the environment and your wallet, but......You know you want one. Even has room for a bouldering mat in the back, or a dog. You need to build a level platform for the back seat for the dog but it works. And, the great thing about Maserati is that they are classy but not chavy in most other cheap sports cars kind of way. Or at least that's what I'm telling myself. Dream on!

Fair point probably, I never looked closely at the pre 2018 model as that rear side view just didn't appeal. The solid:window ratio was way too high for my taste. The D5s offer a decent bit more power compared to the D4 without too much loss of fuel economy, so you might have been onto a good thing ... ignoring the dealer issues! 

I’ve got a 2020 one - more the whole shape of the boot - it tapers quite a bit at the pillars and the roof. I downsized from a Range Rover so maybe anything would feel small but it’s definitely not the old wardrobe on wheels the V70 was.

Wife loved the heated seats which were very comfy and to be fair there didn't appear to be anything wrong with the car as far as I could tell - didn't get as far as an AA check - twas not to be

Why limit yourself to these dates? If it's reliability then bang for buck a 20 years Lexus is likely to be more reliable than a newer budget car.

I really rate the Lexus RX400H (mines 2006).

Very reliable. Had mine 7 years and nothing other than basic maintenance needed. What I like about it.

• Pretty quick.
• Very comfortable and fairly luxurious 
• Fairly economical 
• Super reliable 
• Cheap to buy
• Four wheel drive
• Big boot 

For the price I can't think of any car that balances those qualities any better.

To echo earlier posts - I loved my Yeti.  Most comfortable driving position I've ever had, tall enough to sit upright without being a hulking great SUV.

The boot was too small - in part because the rear seats were very generous.

If an electric version with about 30cm more boot length appeared, that would basically be my perfect car.

For what is basically the same car as a Skoda Yeti try the Roomster instead. Same mechanics/engines/removable seats, etc but at a fraction of the price.

It may not handle quite as well, or have the same rugged looks, but size wise you can fit 3 bouldering pads in the boot with all 3 rear seats in place, or with 2 seats removed 3 adult bikes.

I had one for many a year without too many problems but have not long updated to a Karoq. A better car all round than the Roomster but the useful internal size is only about the same. 3 pads fit in the boot (without quite as much headroom) but only the higher spec SE L model has the removable seats as standard and tbh the interior materials are probably too nice for a climber’s car. A couple of niggles; due to the armrest between the front seats the middle rear seat doesn’t fold and tilt fully (stupid design fault), also unlike the Roomster the back of the passenger seat doesn’t fold back flat so  carrying long items (like 8ft long planks) isn’t as easy. Even the petrol engines get 55mpg on a long run though.

Not going to read all the other posts on here, so someone might have already said this. I owned a VW group diesel car for year, the servicing costs and repairs for that car stacked up to something shocking. Electric handbrake replacements costs alone saw me payout just under £2k for the two times then seized on while out in the Peak and the engine didn't even make it to 120K, with ever minor and major service intervals being met to the schedule.  

When looking at a replacement for that car to drive 15k miles a year for skiing, mtb and climbing trips I wanted something with a low buy in cost and a low running cost that had less than 30K at 4 years old that wasn't totally horrible to drive around in. I settled on a Vauxhall Astra 1.6l SRI. I spent about 2 months trawling auto trader, visiting garages and ringing around dealerships. Every other brand of car wanted a couple of £k more for an older and lower spec car, the servicing costs and repair costs also seemed to always come out higher on the other diesel cars I was considering. 

My thoughts on a car for travelling for hobbies are that you ae going to put way more miles on them than the average driver and you are going to get there by drive on crap roads at some point. So I want to loose the least amount of money out of my pocket without driving something that is totally unsuitable or unreliable. You can still pick a 2019 plate Astra estate up for for under £10k with less than 40K miles on the clock. Its got apple car play as standard, loads of room in the back and its euro 6. If I knew I was going to have that car until its way past 100k miles and the resale value is going to be next to nothing anyway I would still buy the same car in 2024 as I did in 2020.

Octavia 1.5 TSi petrol here. Avg mpg readout says 50-55mpg at 70mph on 7 hour trips to Scotland. Accuracy is a bit iffy though - I worked it out to be more like 48mpg. Still, not bad for a petrol engine. 

Renault Zoe suits me just fine. Perfect for two climbers and two sacs of trad gear. Can get two bouldering mats with the seat down. 220 mile range in summer and an adequate 125 mile range in winter. Pair it with some solar panels and you need never pay for your climbing adventures again . 50k mileage Zoe  can be bought for £7k . 

Before my Dad treated himself to a BMW estate, he liked driving his 17 year old A6 estate because it was already scratched and dented.

Sounds great if most of your journeys are within that range. Guess it would work well in a two car household where you also have a car for longer jouneys.

I don't understand why there is such a difference in range between summer & winter though?

Perhaps from having grown up with large estates, I'm planning on something like this once I've passed and found a job (I've a few k saved up, too).

https://www.gumtree.com/p/honda/honda-accord-ex-2.0-petrol-tourer-ulez-free...

Except for the occasional 'whoops' year/engine model with oil dillution problems (which one can check up on from googling the engine model number), Honda seem to have a great reputation for engine quality and Accords get good reliability reviews, can go for 300000 miles circa*.

Edit * Honda engines generally, that is.

I have two cars (shamefully) Skoda Fabia and BMW 320i Touring. Both brilliant cars and both driven from London to Scotland for climbing trips. All modern cars are good and all are basically the same, save size. Heated seats and rear window estate door opening on  BMW are good features. Skoda drove from London to Inverness on one tank of fuel. 1 litre top speed 115mph.

Euro 6 engine can get you into the various LEZ zones whereas a 20 year old car won’t I guess..

I had a petrol Octavia back in 2013 then upgraded to a nearly new diesel Superb, which was .. superb, a significant step up comfort wise, especially on long journeys. Still got it - just driven back from Chamonix to the Lakes, 1100 miles without any fuss, and still getting 57 mpg. 165K on the clock so far, I get it serviced at an independent garage once a year, I'll keep it until it stops being reliable.

My 2006 Lexus RX is ULEZ compliant as it's EURO 4.

My 2000 V8 Range Rover is alo compliant even through it's only EURO 2 as it meats the EURO 4 requirements for ULEZ.

It's only diesels which usually needs to be EURO 6 compliant.

If you like value for the buck than Toyota RAV4 no matter the year, altough the infotaiment is a bit wack

https://mag.toyota.co.uk/toyota-people-the-400000-mile-avensis-estate-taxi/

If you bought a low milage 2011/12 Avensis estate, they can apparently run to 400000 miles if looked after (it's from Toyota Magazine, but it's about a taxi driver owner).

This is cool, too. ''I have a 2008 Avensis D4d with 632000 miles still on the original clutch. It was used as a taxi owned by my father in law which I bought from him 5 years ago and still going strong.''

Kinda 'not too exciting' as cars, maybe...

It’s because battery electrolytic mediums become more dense with lowering temperatures so there is more resistance to electron flow. The mars landers solar panels are principle there to heat the battery to keep charge flowing. Some modern electric cars also heat the battery in winter but that alarms me given how volatile they can be.

This.

Passing 200k on mine. Nothing gone wrong from 60k (when I bought it @4years old for 7k). I’m 6’3” and can sleep stretched out in the boot as the rear seats fold flat. 47mpg if you drive carefully and at 85 on motorways. Beautifully easy car to drive. 
 

Last one was made 2018 but I know what I’m buying next.

Thanks for that, I'll file it away for when I can afford one.

Yetis are genuinely great cars (we had 2 diesels) but they aren't particularly long cars compared to other 'estate' cars so your load space in the rear is tall- as opposed to long and flat. 

I have a 2016 Fabia Estate now which has a really big boot for a smaller car. It's a good car but pretty slow. If could be arsed spending the cash an Octavia VRS estate would be my choice but since used car prices are daft I'll not bother. 

Range Rover Vogue. 2 large organic pads in back easily.

A bit newer than the age you were looking for in the OP, but for anyone looking at a car from 2021 or so onwards and who couldfit a home charger, I'd really recommend going electric. I just recently got rid of our last diesel (an Octavia) and replaced it with a VW ID4. We've had an ID3 for 2.5 years. They are great cars, you are reducing your impact on the environment and there are now lots of really good used EV deals about. Bit of a lack of estates but it's getting better. 

Dacia Jogger.  

Can get a LPG version  in Britain?

Now tell them the bit about the fuel economy......

No, just petrol or hybrid.

I've test driven one of those and it's basically a sort of hybrid of a Berlingo and some sort of more traditional estate car.  Definitely feels cheap, but also is very cheap for a new car (very few on the used market, I suspect most buyers are the sort who buy new and keep it until it falls to bits then scrap it and repeat).  One notable disadvantage, though, is that if the driver's seat is all the way back and down as tall people will need there's almost no legroom in the back seat behind - you'd not fit much more than a 5 year old there.

Sluggish as sin (even the hybrid, which is odd given that my mate has a 1l Focus mild hybrid which goes like a 2l petrol would) but practical in terms of space.  But overall I think I'd say a 2-3 year old used estate or Berlingo or similar is probably a better bet than a new Jogger unless you have a specific reason to want to buy new.

Best car for a climber is this, no more worrying about lack of parking spaces! 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/weird/531892/Floss-four-wheel-sheep-dog-car-...

They're not so considerate for others though, in terms of space taken up, and fuel used.

Long time no see Si dH, I thought you’d perhaps checked out.

I like our EV but it falls short of great.  Every single EV I’ve seen or driven falls short of great.  They all have touchscreens and LCDs galore.  For me, the UI/UX is really annoying.  Also I’ve yet to drive one where the EPS replicates the feel of hydraulic power steering (having briefly had use of an MP4-12C I know it’s possible to have EPS with proper feedback).

A “great” EV will have a stop pedal, a go pedal, a speed dial or segmented display, a simple battery level display, and physical switches for all common tasks.  I can live with an auxiliary OLED or LCD that can be turned off without impacting driving tasks.  

A small cardboard cutout without a hole for the climate control bit of the screen turns our Leaf into an almost great car.  If the EPS was fixed and if had the suspension and rear wheel mounting adjusted for some serious lift off oversteer, it would be one of the greatest cars I’ve ever driven.  The Abarth 500e leans in to that direction…

Also a lack of hard top convertibles.  But the last couple of years BEVs have exploded in number and variety to the point I’ve lost track of them.  It’s great to see so many manufacturers and marques getting in on the action.

To be fair all my rants about BEVs are rants about modern vehicles, but there are no (excluding weird things) BEVs that pre date the era of awful UI/UX for the PlayStation generation and EPS.

It'll never be out of the garage long enough to go fast. 

GMC Hummer EV if you fancy something big and quick. 

How do you figure this. 

My range rover is the same length as a Skoda Octavia. Newer ones than mine are 5% longer.

I genuinely don't mean to be a smarty pants, but haven't you just proven that 4x4's can take up more room lengthways than estate cars? 

It was the width I had in mind, and the fuel consumption is something to be mindful of in enviornmental times, at least until the synthetic petrol which uses CO2 scrubbed from the air becomes viable, becomes greener than from fossil fuels, or carbon negative... 

Not sure I understand your point. Estate cars can be longer than 4x4s. So difference in length isn't really a factor.

Ah. But does width really matter? They still fit on one side of the road. You can't fit two of any cars side by side anyway. Bikes and motorbikes can pass without issue. 

I wouldn't argue this one. Mines terrible. But I only fill mine once every three months so it doesn't really bother me.

I don't hold much hope for synthetic fuel. It will be too expensive owing to how much energy it costs to manufacture.

I'm holding out for an EV conversion when parts are cheaper (unless they tighten the rules on such things)

They are great on fuel. 38+mpg

Bring back buttons and knobs! I was wondering if there could be some sort of plug and play centre consoles for these EVs, could be a great aftermarket offering. 

I think the view on this stems back to older petrol Range Rovers. Mine really only occasional takes me to and from the strain station these days and averages about 12 mpg.

I think safety standards will catch up one day and all driver critical toggles will need physical buttons before long.

But it will need to be evidence based so if it's true that touch screens cause accidents the data should one day be available. 

However, I fear that many drivers will be unsure if they will face more blame if they admit it was caused by the built in screen so the data may not reflect reality.

My car is last pre touchscreen generation (2014 Astra). Not intending to change it for at least another 3 years but I'm not looking forward to replacing it with all this touchscreen etc stuff rather than a car I can just get in and drive.

I still lurk a bit!

I think you pretty much said it - those criticisms are fair, but apply to all new car models from the last few years, not just EVs. Manufacturers don't want to go backwards from touch screens for whatever reason. A bit like they want to push SUVs on everyone.

It's fairly depressing how few people on this forum are interested in EVs and just want to drive a diesel estate. I'm glad I've got rid of mine, albeit at over 100k miles. I'd like to think climbers are more than averagely environmentally conscious. 

Cost will be a major factor for probably most people.

I would happily buy an electric estate for <£10k, capable of racking up an additional 100k miles.

If you are looking at a car from 2021 onwards they are no more expensive now. 1st year depreciation is pretty high and used EVs now cost similar to their petrol equivalents. 

Yes if you want something older there isnt enough choice yet.

(Prices of all cars have gone through the roof the last few years. My 3yo Octavia in 2018 cost £13k, now the same car/age/mileage is well over £20k, and I sold mine to a dealer a couple of months ago at 9yo with over 100k on the clock for £7k. The dealer sold it for £9k pretty fast.)

They will do as many miles as a petrol or diesel, more probably. But you can't buy a decent estate of any kind under £10k unless it's pretty old already now.

Apart from the cost issue, isn't the environmentally best thing to run your existing car into the ground and then change to EV.

In practice it depends what the car is but yes, I think the sensible thing to do is to wait until you want to change your car anyway and then replace it with an electric one if you can.

Depends how you define old.

Using the filters in Autotrader

Skoda

Octavia

estate

50,000 miles

2018

10,000 quid

I turned up 11 cars.

They're there but you have to look for them. If you don't want to find any you probably won't.

Why would you think that, this place is littered with threads on flying all over the world, driving from one end of the country to the other for a quick fix of dopamine, for purely selfish reasons.

I'd suggest the opposite is true, most of my neighbours drive older cars, rarely leave the local area and rarely fly anywhere. In my my eyes they lead utterly dull lives, but they seem content to watch TV and sit in the garden. 

We (climbers cyclists etc etc) are off all over the place at weekends jamming up the tourist spots, with our holier than thou attitude.

From an environmental perspective I would argue no. The manufacturing emissions are essentially sunk emissions. The lifetime (including manufacturing) per mile emissions of a typical EV will be lower than the per mile tail pipe emissions of a regular ice car. Therefore, there is no environmental justification for sticking with an ice car

*while I do now drive an EV I only made the switch after someone drove into me a couple of monthe ago and wrote my car off and I have held onto my diesel for another couple of years if it hadn't been written off, I just wasn't telling myself that this was environmentally justified 

Maybe it would be fair to say...

I'd like to think climbers are more than averagely environmentally appreciative

Hadn't realised that, was still thinking that lifetime EV/mile > ICU tail pipe/mile

There is a sort of counter argument...

• Limited number of EV vehicles being manufactured (or currently capable of being manufactured)
• People with the least environmentally friendly ICU vehicles should be the first to move to EV
• People with more environmentally friendly ICU vehicles should wait unless their ICU vehicle is at the scrap stage or manufacturing has sufficiently increased

i.e. gas guzzlers first - of course the above ordering isn't possible to implement in practice except by social pressures which would need some cultivating or by tax regimes making gas guzzlers more expensive to keep running

Doesn’t this depend on your annual mileage? To take two extreme data points: if I only drive 100 miles per year I can’t see that I would offset the initial manufacturing emissions of a new EV with its reduced emissions per mile compared to running an already-existing ICE vehicle until it was dead. Whereas if I’m doing 30,000 miles a year it probably would make sense to switch to a new EV. Quite where the emissions break-even point lies doesn’t appear to be straightforward and of course depends on the efficiency / emissions of the vehicles being considered. I don’t think it’s as straightforward as saying that switching to EV is always the lower emissions choice in all circumstances is it?

I've spent the last few decades trying to work out how drilling holes in rock faces ties in with the ethos of "take only photographs, leave only footprints".  

There are various studies with different results and as you say it depends on the cars, but when comparing new EV vs new ICE, the more reliable studies as I understand it now suggest an EV should earn back the additional manufacturing carbon defecit after very roughly 20000 miles. Almost all cars do way over 20000 miles in their lifetime, so whenever you want to get a car, if you can it makes environmental sense for it to be electric, and if you are looking at cars of a similar age, the financial cost of doing so is no longer large.  But agree, if you are perfectly happy with your own car and don't need a newer one, then don't get a newer one. At least, unless the old one is a massive gas guzzler and you do 20000 miles a year!

As the owner of a petrol car, and doing relatively low annual mileage, but still wondering if I should go EV next time (and whether I should make that as soon as possible)... I also wonder about the environmental damage of lithium mining, in places like the Atacama. I don't know how the hell you're supposed to weigh the pros and cons of that?

New ev compared to new ice car, maybe takes 15000 miles for the EV to be less environmentally damaging [1]. Scrap a perfectly functional ice car and buy a new ev and it maybe takes 45000 miles for that to less environmentally damaging than just keeping the ice car going [1]. If we assume that the ev lasts 15 years then so long as you are doing at least 3000 miles a year buying a new ev and scrapping an ice car would be less environmentally damaging than keeping the ice car running indefinitely 

[1] https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/when-do-electric-vehi...

I tend to take the view that climate change is an order of magnitude more important, globally, than relatively localised impacts of mining. Obviously I'd prefer it if the child slave labour could be taken out of the process too.

True. But if you've got a half decent ICE, it's probably not going to be scrapped if you get an EV; it'll be sold on. And the buyer will, on average, be replacing something less efficient with your car.  That less efficient car will probably, in turn, be sold rather than scrapped.

This process goes down the chain. Ideally the car that's actually displaced and scrapped because of the purchase of a new EV will be end of life and very inefficient.

Also, it's not as though there's not localised pollution from oil, Canada's tar sands don't get a great rep, and neither does US (or UK) fracking. I don't claim to be an expert on these or how these compare to Lithium mining pollution but at least there is scope to recycle a reasonable percentage of the Lithium in a battery which there isn't with oil

Thanks. How did you work out the figure of 3000 miles from the data in your link?

I tend to agree with Jamie and S Ramsay. We should ultimately move to recycled batteries, but the impacts of mining emissions are in any case an order of magnitude lower than those of fossil fuel production. It's well covered in the ETC report available through this link:

https://stopburningstuff.org/myths-facts/ev-myth-battery-minerals-are-limit...

If considering local pollution due to mining,  you also have to consider the impact of oil spills, and of local tailpipe emissions on kids' health in our cities. After driving an EV for a couple of years and having young kids, this latter is the thing that bothers me most day-to-day - you really notice it once you're thinking about it.

In terms of EV estates for c. 10k there are a few MG5 estates for around that price on autotrader.

Not the biggest boot or battery, but a viable climbers' car I would say.