UKH

I was up in Glencoe for a couple of days and couldn't believe the change in the place!

Gone are the days of a hiker and climbers dream with 2 spit and sawdust bars. It has now, as far as I can see, been yuppified!

The biggest disappointment was the kingshouse! Over £350 for 1 person for 1 night and you have to pay for parking too.

Changed days. Progress I guess.

In reply to Opinan84:

Did you visit everywhere or just the Kingshouse?

In reply to Opinan84:

Clachaig as well. £190 for 1 person 1 night.

I couldn't be bothered going anywhere else after those two. There were so many people.

In reply to Opinan84:

Go in January and it is still shockingly quiet

In reply to Opinan84:

The crags are still there, don't care as much about the rest.

In reply to tlouth7:

It used to be busy in January.

OP: The Clachaig bar may have changed (since 1991) but the mountains are still the same, possibly busier though.

In reply to Opinan84:

I occasionally go there at the weekend and instantly become grateful for shift work and plenty of midweek days off. Once you get away from the obvious roadside paths then it's not so bad. 

It's also July..........

The Red Squirrel campsite is still ok, and the midges were non existent last week.

In reply to Opinan84:

I was out at the back of An t'Sron and saw no one. Just like I was in Glen Nevis on Saturday and once I left the car park, I saw no one all day (at Wave Buttress up on the high path to Steall) -- on a Saturday -- on a sunny Saturday with a full cark park!

In reply to Opinan84:

We went to the Clachaig for a quick pint in May, around 5pm before the evening rush. It was not crowded, but it took over 15 minutes to get served; one staff member serving who appeared to be away with the faeries. One staff member watching him. Another staff member watching the watcher. All of them avoiding eye-contact with the customers.

By the time we left there was a queue of 20+ people all of who were saying; (in French, German, Korean...), "Why TF can't I just buy a drink and order a pizza?"

Avoid.

In reply to 65:

• It’s certainly changed since I was first there in 1974! Climbers bar, bunkhouse up the road, camping for free next to the pub. Roddy the policeman coming into the bar to ask for volunteers for a rescue and then being aided a score of half pissed climbers😀

In reply to peppermill:

I had four midweek days out in Glen Coe throughout May on lovely sunny days (one on the Buachaille, two on Bidean, and one on the Aonach Eagach) and never saw another soul on my ridges of choice. After going along the Aonach Eagach I met one other guy on Sgurr nam Fiannaidh who had come up from the Clachaig end and wasn't doing the ridge. I had a nice wee blether with him, he currently runs the Red Squirrel campsite. The roadside selfie view points, pubs etc might be rammed, but with an early start it's still relatively easy to grab some mountain solitude in Glen Coe....oh, I've never seen a single midge so far this summer, however I did see some blustery wee snow showers in June. 

In reply to Opinan84:

+1 to the general "it's only busy if you hit the same spots as every other visitor/tourist".

Sure accommodation like the Kingshouse is ridiculously overpriced but that is really a function of supply and demand, with the latter massively outstripping the former. You can have a business ethics debate about an accommodation supplier pricing out everyone but the richest in the name of greed but I'm not sure how strong a wicket you'd be batting on when the product in question is a luxury like tourist accommodation.

And in terms of staff, all across the N of Scotland cafes, bars, restaurants, hotels and basically anything tourist related can't find enough staff to hire, you can probably thank Brexit at least partially for that. Many establishments open for a reduced number of days because even if they lower their expected standards to the basement, they still can't find enough employees.

In reply to Opinan84:

Glencoe isn't two eateries, it's the hills, the glens, the history, the atmosphere when cloud rolls in or out(less often!) Etc.. none of these have changed. 

What has changed is in the past you'd drive in, straining your eyes hopefully towards the laybys and see 5 or 6 cars parked up on a morning and think how quite the routes will be, now you see big white motorhomes everywhere, whilst the routes are quiet parking is more challenging. 

In reply to 65:

There are many more driving around visiting places they seen online or in the likes of bond, harry potter, nc500 PR stuff etc.. but with the exception of the Ben actual hill traffic hasn't increased much (to me anyway) 

In reply to ExiledScot: in my experience some are significantly busier while others remain quiet. A dull April Monday (not Easter) and Glen Lochay parking was rammed for Meall Ghaordaidh. A May weekend and I looked from the summit of Beinn Ghlas and stopped counting at 100 people either on their way up or heading over to Ben Lawers. Parking for the Buachaille can be crazy with folk down to the footbridge (risking their undercarriage😏) and all along the roadside. The carparks at Keiloch, Linn of Dee, Glen Muick are rammed most weekends and busy during the week. While not all translate to numbers on the hill recent visits to the surrounding hills were not lonely! One of the key elements for me that suggests an increase in hill traffic is paths which are present where there were none, or they were embryonic, or significant path erosion and widening. In contrast the path on the south side of the Dubh Loch leading to the Central Slabs has all but reverted to heather and grass after the initial section.

In reply to Neil Morrison:

The Ghlas/Lawers thing is perhaps the most stark example in Scotland of how habits have changed with almost everyone now taking the easier high start / good path option rather than the arguably more interesting approaches. I'm fond of the Lawers hills and have several days on them each year, almost always including at least one wander up the east ridge of Ben Lawers - a lovely route high up on the "better" side of the hill. I'm not sure when I last met anyone on this approach - maybe once in the last ten visits - but it's now completely normal to arrive at the summit and encounter 50 people who have come up from the easy side, then another 50 between Lawers and Ghlas. I tend to drop south off Beinn Ghlas (another nice route) and it goes completely quiet again.

Go back 30 years and while the eastern side of Ben Lawers would still have been the quieter one, you did tend to meet people on the east ridge or thereabouts. There are still folk starting from Lawers village these days but they're tending to do the Meall Greigh / Garbh / An Stuc thing and not going to Ben Lawers itself. I mostly use the excellent farm/hydro track north of Tombreck which splits the difference between the main high road and Lawers village, but again this is very quiet generally. The relatively low start (but still 200m) and the pathless (but still pretty easy) mid-height section seems to be a big no-no for people.

In reply to Dave Hewitt:

Can I ask where you park for that approach? As far as I can see from aerial photos, there seems to be parking space available at the turn-in to the Tombreck farm shop.  

In reply to Harry Jarvis:

There is parking on the south side of the road at the turn-in as you say, although I generally don't use it given that I'm heading up the hill rather than doing any shopping. I usually park in the layby about half a km or so further east along the road - that always seems to have space and the road is generally quiet enough not to be alarming for the five-minute walk at the start/end of the day. Friends went by the same route a week or so ago and did park at the Tombreck turn-in (ie no road walk at all) and didn't encounter any issues, so maybe it's OK just to do that. I've met shepherds and farmers thereabouts occasionally and they've been friendly.

I really like the track leading up on to the hill - must have been up/down that way 20 or more times over the years. Tends to take me about 45 minutes to walk from the track end to where it levels off at 600m (there's a useful and quite comfortable rock to sit on here!), then there are various options. Going straight up on to the S ridge of Ben Lawers is doable but probably not ideal as it's a long slog. I mostly go another ten minutes or so east along the flat section of track then strike up grassy slopes and eventually (after passing a prominent outcrop) arrive at the lovely cairn at the foot of the east ridge of Lawers, overlooking the main corrie - one of the nicest spots in the Southern Highlands. The sharp ridge above that is short but good and brings you out on that strange rockfall-ish section leading to the top. Another option is just to stay on the 600m track right the way along - again this takes me 45 minutes or so - as it gives good access to the eastern Munros. However you do it, it's certainly a longer day than the western approaches but very pleasant in an old-fashioned kind of way.

I also sometimes go at Meall Greigh (a good winter outing if treated as a one-hill day) from the Boreland plantation a couple of miles east of Lawers village. Again there's good parking at the start of the track (local dogwalkers use this), although it's a bit of an acquired taste as the zigzag track doesn't quite go high enough to be ideal so it can be rough going in the middle section. But then coming down off Meall Greigh by the really nice path to Lawers village and walking the 30 minutes or so back east along the road to Boreland has its merits if you don't mind a bit of tarmac at the end of the day. Lots of options, as ever.

In reply to Dave Hewitt:

Very many thanks for such detail. I've been minded to revisit Ben Lawers for some years, but the last few times I've been on the minor road to the 'usual' car park, I've been horrified at the numbers of cars. Your alternative approach sound very attractive. 

In reply to Harry Jarvis:

No problem. Yes, it's a good way in if you fancy a longer/quieter day than the standard approach. Obviously people's speed varies but these days I tend to find it takes me 2hr30ish up Lawers that way without any rush - I always have a stop at the comfy rock at the track levelling and also at the cairn at the foot of the E ridge. So by the time I've done that and then had lunch up top somewhere and trundled across to Beinn Ghlas and down SE from there (via the 933m bump - another lovely spot) and angling back across the burn to the track it's usually a 6hr job. Have just checked notes from when I last did this - in mid-May, the day of the paraglider crash on Beinn Ghlas; I was round in 5hr45 including 80 minutes off here and there, so still only a middling-long outing. And of course you can easily throw in Meall Corranaich between Lawers and Ghlas if so minded, using the contour path. The lower start from Tombreck also has the merit of avoiding any high-road dodginess in winter.

In reply to Opinan84:

A tourist in Glen Coe complaining that there are too many tourists. 

In reply to Dave Hewitt:

I usually do a round of Meall Garbh, An Stuc and Ben Lawers (missing out Meall Greigh) from Lawers village 2 or 3 times a year (being NTS it's handy during the stalking season). I last did it on the 12th June this year. Saw a couple of folk coming the other way as I made my way up onto Lawers, otherwise very quiet. After dropping down to Lochan nan Cat from a deserted Lawers east ridge (likewise I have never met anyone else on this ridge) I bumped into a couple of folk returning from An Stuc. A wee while ago me and ma mate walked along a frozen solid Lochan nan Cat and gained An Stuc via Cat Gully. It's an easy grade I snow climb, on that day it was a very scenic one....to think not so very long ago we used to take days like that for granted. 

In reply to Harry Jarvis:

Its my favourite approach, makes for a nice circuit.

In reply to twentytwoangrymen:

I didn't get that from the OP,  they were just making an obversation.

In reply to twentytwoangrymen:

Tourist my arse!

In reply to 65:

There used to be snow in January

 reply to Brass Nipples:

There still is, some pics from the 8th January 2024 on the Beinn Fhada ridge (Glen Coe).  

In reply to Opinan84:

Certainly driving through last weekend the glen was busier (in terms of parked cars) than I've ever seen it.

The NTS car park is smaller capacity, and the second car park is coaches only now, which might be having a spillover effect.

Parked cars in every possible nook and cranny, including several in the driveway of the to be demolished infamous cottage.

Altnafeadh also had some "interesting" parking.

On a plus side the road was open - most of the major arterial routes seem to have been closed for prolonged accident investigation work a lot this year. Seeing some of the donorcycle driving I can see why.

In reply to Opinan84:

If you're there for leisure/recreation then you're a tourist.

In reply to Joak:

I once had a crampon fall apart halfway up that ridge, which focused the mind a bit. A really nice old pair of pure step-ins, toe-and-heel clips, and the connecting bar broke in two. Eventually got it replaced by a guy who worked in a single unit at Springkerse. When I visited, the entire unit, apart from about two feet right round the edge, was filled with an MG Midget he was restoring. He'd never seen a set of crampons before but did a really good job fitting new bars and they worked fine until I eventually switched to winter boots that couldn't take them. Best crampons I ever had - really liked that you could put them on in just a few seconds, rather than the usual faff with long straps etc. Felt safer, as I was more inclined to wear them for short stretches then take them off again.

Sounds like you're doing well anyway - good stuff.

In reply to DaveHK:

If a guy living in Fort William has a day out on the Ben, he's a local enjoying his hobby of choice. If I have a day out on Ben Vorlich and Stuc a' Chroin, a half hour drive away and can see them clearly from my house, does that make me a tourist? Just curious. 🙂

In reply to Joak:

Absolutely. You've travelled somewhere to take part in an activity.

In reply to DaveHK:

So when I walk 20 minutes every Monday evening from September to May to play at my local chess club - my main activity other than climbing hills - am I also being a tourist? On that basis it feels like tourism = stepping outside the house.

In reply to DaveHK:

I tend to think of the wider hill-list activity - especially the big UK-wide lists, Marilyns, Humps etc - as a form of tourism, as that involves a lot of travel and associated expense. But local hillgoing, as Joak suggests, feels like something else. Hence if I had a day in Glen Coe from Stirling (which I haven't done since 2015, yikes) then that is touristy, but when I have one of my 100-odd Ochil outings in a year then I'm doing something different.

In reply to aln:

In their own words....

"I couldn't be bothered going anywhere else after those two. There were so many people."

In reply to DaveHK:

If I have the panniers on and am out overnight/nights then I hope I am considered a tourist. Bit of an aspiration right now unfortunately.

In reply to DaveHK:

Roger dodger, thanks for satisfying my curiosity. Basically every time you make a journey (large or small) to do something. After a lifetime of referring to Vorlich and the Stuc as "ma two local Munros", they are now "the two Munros nearest ma hoose". 🙂 

In reply to Joak:

I'm not saying this is the case with you but climbers and hill walkers have a bit of a chip on their shoulder about not being tourists when in fact that's exactly what they are. Drive for an hour to get a fish supper and sit by the sea and you're a tourist, drive for an hour to walk up a hill and you're something else, presumably something a bit more worthy.

In reply to DaveHK: Phew, cheers bud. Vorlich and the Stuc have now officially been restored as "Ma two local Munros" 🙂....which is just as weel. When I faw aff ma perch ma laddie has been instructed to horse ma ashes doon the Stuc's east face, preferably on a quiet, blawy, dull grey day. 🙂

In reply to DaveHK:

Absolutely. I lived in Fort William some years ago but still considered myself a tourist when I visited Glen Coe. 

According to the OED a tourist is one who travels for pleasure. It doesn't state there is a minimum distance one has to travel.

In reply to Dave Hewitt:

No, because that's not travelling. Just as going from your kitchen to the loo is not travelling (unless your loo is very, very far away, ie; Jamaica).

In reply to twentytwoangrymen:

Define "travelling".

I must admit that I don't consider myself a tourist when "at home" (ie in Scotland, maybe the UK). I actually feel more "at home" up a hill or in my van than in my house anyway.

In reply to DaveHK:

Drive an hour on a motorway - 70 miles.

Drive an hour on winding slow local roads dodging tourists and farm vehicles, 30 or 40 miles (if you are lucky, sometimes its 20-30 mph) to get somewhere much closer as the crow files because of geography.  Not quite the same thing, you start and end in the same locality, hardly "touristic" travelling.  Do the 40 miles on a pushbike arguably is a small tour.

In reply to twentytwoangrymen:

That seems ambiguous to me. Is the travelling itself the pleasure or are you travelling in order to get somewhere where you do something for pleasure? 

In reply to Robert Durran:

It's one of those terms with no clear, unambiguous definition. If you make it narrow, you end up excluding things you'd want to include, make it broad and you end up including things you'd like to exclude.

In reply to twentytwoangrymen:

Does that include Doggers as they definitely travel for pleasure...

In reply to DaveHK:

You need Wittgenstein’s theory of family resemblances:

“It argues that things which could be thought to be connected by one essential common feature may in fact be connected by a series of overlapping similarities, where no one feature is common to all of the things.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_resemblance
 

In reply to FactorXXX:

“I prefer to think of myself more as a sex traveller than a sex tourist…”

In reply to Robert Durran:

I'm just quoting the OED. You'd need to call Oxford and argue the point with a professor or the dictionary writer. However the word dates from the 1300's so you won't be able to speak to the original guy.

In reply to Robert Durran:

To a resident of say, Sheldaig, when you walk through the village with your fleece and walking boots, rucksack etc, you are very much a tourist. Despite your home address.

In reply to twentytwoangrymen:

Leaving aside the assumption that the entire population of Shieldaig know each other, the only giveaway of being a tourist there would be an inability to spell it correctly.

In reply to seankenny:

Have you ever thumbed a ride?

In reply to Robert Durran:

There was once a time when being a traveller - a "bona fide traveller" was rather important, well at least on a Sunday.

In reply to twentytwoangrymen:

When I see similar in the town where I live (and they are reasonably frequent being a nice place to walk) I don't think of them as tourists. They are just walkers. I've no idea how far they have travelled. Why should Shieldaig be different? Maybe "walkers" become tourists when they become something unwelcome to be tolerated or, better, exploited.

In reply to twentytwoangrymen:

From how far down the road would I have to be not to be a tourist? Torridon, Kinlochewe, Garve, Inverness, Perth?

In reply to Robert Durran:

It doesn't matter how far. 

In reply to Brass Nipples:

There used to be nice firm neve, not the fleeting powdery stuff of today. And icicles.

In reply to twentytwoangrymen:

But it does seem to be according to the assertion made by t'other Dave:

"Absolutely. You've travelled somewhere to take part in an activity"

hence my suggestion about a very local journey to do something that is (for me) completely routine. To stretch the idea a little, what if instead of walking the 20-25 minutes to the chess club of a Monday evening, I have an away match in the league, which means going as far as the wilds of Grangemouth (25-minute drive) or Broxburn (50-minute drive)? That's surely travelling in the normal sense of the word, so does it make me a tourist?

PS - Joak - re your eventual (but not for ages yet) ashes scattering on the east side of Stuc, that'd be a good place for it. After my best hill pal Ken died we scattered his ashes on the NW side of Stuc, down a bit from the summit in a nice quiet spot facing the bigger hills. I've sat there every time I've been back, and it's always felt the right place.

In reply to Dave Hewitt:

Grangemouth is overrun with tourists these days. The locals must be completely fed up with them.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Grangemouth is like Barcelona of an evening compared with Broxburn!

Actually, to get back to the more serious nub of the argument, I've never felt touristy by nature but I have come to regard a lot of mainstream hill activity as a form of tourism - so I do agree with that side of the argument in that respect and I wouldn't really dispute that 20 years ago when I tidying up a round of Munros I was some sort of tourist.

But distance/locality is surely a factor, as is habitual behaviour. As I've got older I've enjoyed travelling less and less, and these days I find it difficult - in daytrip terms from Stirling I seem to have a 90-minute travel radius and even then I'm much happier coming home than heading out. Homesickness, I guess. I don't think I could do a Munro round now, headwise (plus there's the expense). But I love getting out, and have a relentless need to get out, hence in part a lot of repeat hill activity in the Ochils and also to a lesser extent on nearbyish things such as Ledi and Stuc/Vorlich. I don't feel at all touristy when I do that, and it's as much to do with the frequency as it is the relatively short travel distance. Arguably "proper" tourists have to keep going to new locations; I'm the opposite - I prefer familiar territory. Does that make sense?

In reply to Opinan84:

everything changes. When my dad cycled through the glen with his club from Liverpool in the early 50s, the road they used is now a footpath, at least at the Glen Coe end. When they went in a pub they were shown round to the bar at the back where the local agricultural workers drank, because the saloon were for the gentry. They stayed in B&Bs that managed to cram a cycling club into every nook and cranny and fed them a huge breakfast the next morning for a few shillings. I wonder if the hotels are using demand pricing, i use hotels around the country that vary their prices between £60 and £250 depending on whats happening in the area

In reply to twentytwoangrymen:

Another observation,  but carry on being angry enough for 22 men if ii fills yer boots.  

In reply to Robert Durran:

Is it fuch, shien!

In reply to Opinan84:

Further to my other post I was talking about the amount of people driving in the highlands with someone at work.

Glen Coe often seems a bit more wholesome, people on holiday wanting to see amazing views, go for a bit of a walk, take some badly composed pictures they'll never look at again or the US/Canada market tracing their family roots or whatever. Glen Coe is also an easy day trip from Glasgow.

Further north often seems like NC500 branded/hired camper van idiocy. Purely my own perception of course!

I'm sure you already know this but spring and late summer/autumn are your friends for the highlands.

In reply to Opinan84:

We're all tourists.  Posibly even grokels.  The only difference between us and the sort of tourist we desperately try to disassociate with is that we're generally more cheapskate about our tourism and therefore don't really contribute to the economies of the areas we visit.

In reply to GrahamD:

Not strictly true, regardless of what activities are partaken, be it trad climbing or 'wild' swimming, those in vans aren't contributing to the same level as those without. They won't be using local accommodation of any type, won't use cafes, shops etc as much, but do often take up twice the parking space of those contributing more. As an extra rant they expect litter, water and toilet facilities despite contributing very little to the local economy.

Rant over, have a good day.

PS. I do often pack a flask from home, but that's because I refuse to spend anything in motorway type services, but have no objections to good independent roadside / truckers cafe.  

In reply to GrahamD:

"more cheapskate about our tourism"

Resisting being priced out.

In reply to Dave Hewitt:

Taken your view further, i think it is often surprising what you find locally once you look, having spent a lot of time planning to go away to places, you often over look what's right under your nose. 

You can extend this of course to not racing around europe or the world, when there are so many things yet to see in the uk. But as you say it's not cheap and traffic is a pain. Peak season seems to be from March until after tattie picking week these days. 

In reply to ExiledScot:

Morning. One of the van villains here.

Some wonderful generalisation going on there. Many of us van types do use sites and therefore pay, make a point of not arriving in the area with a van full of stuff and enjoy buying things "local"

In reply to Wainers44:

I was generalising, perhaps quite heavily and know exactly where you're coming from, I used to have a T3. I think there are many who don't think and travel as you do, and when there are literal thousands more vans or rather motorhomes it makes a difference. In the past most vans were swb, a few long, but generally under 6m, now many take the road and parking space of small trucks. It's different game these days.

I'd love a van again, there some hybrid panel vans, merc has a swb sprinter EV now with 500km range, but the culture and ethos isn't same and it's sadly not really a tribe I'd feel happy joining anymore. 

In reply to Fat Bumbly 2.0:

I think of it as being healthily thrifty and resistant to exploitation and guilt mongers.

In reply to ExiledScot:

Loads of people in vans stay on campsites though. For example, look at the changes to the glenbrittle campsite over the past few years.

Hating on van owners is very similar to the elitist bollocks about tourists further up in this thread. If you're grumpy about the places you visit being busier than you'd like then it's easier to blame <insert chosen group> than admit that you're part of the problem, such as it is, too.

In reply to ExiledScot:

Plus conditions change all the time, and you get to know the local shepherds etc. Spending a lot of time on a local hill / range of hills lets you see the seasons change and also allows you to slot in extra outings between other commitments because travel time is short and you get to know how long the various hill rounds take - I'm forever doing Ochil things that are about four hours door-to-door with only 15 or 20 minutes of driving at either end.

There are more people staying local and making repeat ascents of things then tends to be generally thought - if you do it yourself you end up getting to know like-minded souls. I think people tend to keep quiet about this as within the general hill community (whatever that is) it tends to be seen as odd/eccentric: climbing 282 different Munros just once each has come to be accepted as fairly normal behaviour, whereas climbing the same Munro 282 times is regarded as a bit weird, even though it has a lot of merits.

The "local" aspect also crops up in the issue of charges being introduced for hill car parks. People who support the charges often say the price is just a small addition to the overall journey cost, which assumes the driver has come from miles away. But an £8 or whatever charge can be an absolute stopper for someone who walks regularly from a car park having driven just four or five miles to get there, whether on cost or just-staying-local grounds. Some car parks do have reduced rates for locals within a certain circumference, or you can buy a reasonable year-long repeat-use ticket, but plenty don't - eg there was some discussion on here a while back about the charges introduced at Loch Moraig below Beinn a' Ghlo, and someone who lived in (I think) Dunkeld had tried and failed to get a local person's reduction. Hence they were being treated as if they had driven from Darlington or Doncaster, even though they just wanted to keep doing their regular local hill round but had now been priced out of using the standard local starting point.

In reply to Dave Hewitt:

If I took the 25 min ferry crossing from Skye to Mallaig and wandered around the town for the day, drinking coffee, looking at the fishing boats and having a nice lunch in a restaurant I would very much consider myself a tourist. So no, I don't think it's about the length of the journey, more the reason for the journey. For that matter if I went back to the town where I was born and grew up and did the same thing I would consider myself a tourist.

I drive 2 hours to the supermarket in Inverness. That doesn't make me a Tesco tourist and I don't really see that as an activity.

youtube.com/watch?v=ElhAysq3O6c&

In reply to twentytwoangrymen:

I don't disagree with this - if I drove 15 miles to Callander and spent an afternoon pottering about doing the shops/cafes thing then I would be in tourist mode. But if I drove another four miles further on, parked at the foot of Loch Lubnaig and did a Ben Ledi loop (and came straight home with no shops/cafes etc) then I wouldn't feel touristy. An individual's mindset and interests are at the root of this: in almost 30 years of living here I don't think I've ever spent time pottering about in Callander - I once went for a pint after Ben Ledi with a friend who was keen to do that, and I've been to a couple of the hotels after funerals, but other than that I think I've always just driven straight through, several hundred times I guess. I'm not really interested in shops/cafes so that side of things doesn't come into play for me - whereas I am interested in hills, chess and watching cricket!

Having the nearest supermarket two hours' drive away is a bit grim - commiserations. Stirling has loads, and one memorises the prime bargain-counter times in each - including what is apparently the UK's most northerly Waitrose! I was in there again yesterday evening, very pleasant as shops go and they were selling croissants for 15p each.

(Also yesterday evening I almost linked to the same song that FB2.0 has just done.)

In reply to pancakeandchips:

I'm not elitist or van hating, i had one, I'd love another, but there are just too many BIG motor homes, people aren't just low impact travelling in a 5m swb van, where their table area becomes their kitchen, then the bed...these are small houses on wheels, they have everything they need in them and they contribute nothing other than taking up space. Plus because of licencing and weight many people are driving something which has the footprint of a hgv, but without the skill set. 

In reply to twentytwoangrymen:

I'd say if you can comfortably make a journey to somewhere in under 30 mins, maybe 60mins, then you're local and not touristing. Even a ferry crossing, it's effectively the neighbouring town, only separated by water and not land. 

In reply to twentytwoangrymen:

Aye it's a funny auld gemme. I've stood on the summits of Ben Vorlich and Stuc a' Chroin over a hundred times in all seasons, in all weathers and from all points of the compass. I gaze at them everyday from my house. They feel part of my family and I am very fond of them. Approaching them from Callander is a short half hours drive and it feels like I'm a local. 

If I drive 15 minutes to Dobbies with the wife for a wee shuffty, some shopping and a bite to eat, I feel one hundred percent a tourist....and cannae wait to get oot of the place. 🙂

In reply to Joak:

The time to panic is when you fit in and feel at home there. 

In reply to ExiledScot:

😂

In reply to Joak:

I once saw a quote from the late Adam Watson, when he was asked why he spent so much time in the Cairngorms. He said he felt at home there. I was never fit to lace Adam's boots in terms of hill knowledge and ability, but I feel the same about the Ochils: they feel like home, or, rather, like an extension of my house.

PS - I'm not quite up to 100 for Vorlich and Stuc as yet: currently 98 for the former and 82 for the latter (even though I like Stuc the better of the two).

In reply to seankenny:

Cheers, wasn't familiar with that.

In reply to ExiledScot:

I just resent paying £3 or whatever for a coffee anywhere! 

Thinking about being a tourist I have concluded that I feel like a tourist when using and paying for tourism infrastructure (cafes, campsite, accomodation, sightseeing etc.) but don't feel like a tourist when being satisfyingly cheapskate and only buying food and fuel. So very rarely a tourist at home but a tourist abroad unless in a van. 

In reply to Opinan84:

The Kingie is absolutely unrecognisable nowadays. I have no idea how they have managed to completely remove all signs of the old hotel and not breached planning laws. We stopped in for a pint after a day on SCNL this Winter and none of the staff had an answer to our, 'where is the climbers bar?' because it apparently doesn't exist anymore, which is quite sad.

On the other hand the new version is pretty damn swanky. If I was a wealthy tourist wanting a premium experience with exceptional views of the Buachaille then it ticks the boxes.

However, I still can't help feeling it's a loss like an old pal has died. 

In reply to Joak:

If you forgive me for getting all sociological on yo' ass, maybe it's not the journey to the place but rather what you see and how you see it once there that defines your tourism:  https://forumviesmobiles.org/en/node/12906/ with the specific reference to the Highlands (and indeed the other hill areas of Britain) scroll down to bit on the romantic gaze as that seems central to me when explaining us mountain goers going to the mountains! I do wonder if with the re-industrialisation of the Highlands through the leisure industries, the MICs and ski instructors - all surfing on precarious wave of late stage capitalism (as it perhaps breaks on climate change dooming us all), come to see the Highlands, due to their precariat/proletariat employment situation, in a way closer to the crofters of old; before Sir Walter Scott and chums romanticized those bonny hills and glens for us all?

In reply to TobyA:

Jeezo neebur, could you maybe condense that into a couple of sentences with words of three syllables or less. I'm a man who enjoys the simple pleasures in life, namely hills and whisky....and being a Saturday night, I've had my fair share of the latter....Slainte mhath.  🙂

In reply to Dave Hewitt:

Someone else pointed out that we, as climbers, don't always consider ourselves as tourists. Interesting that you use the words 'tourist mode' rather than simply saying tourist. 

Not having a go, just an observation. Smiley face thing.

In reply to ExiledScot:

I disagree. If I took the half hour crossing to Mallaig to pick up an item of furniture I bought on Facebook and then caught the next ferry back I'm not a tourist. If I took the ferry for a day out to eat ice cream and look at the boats that I definitely am. I'd still say it's more about the purpose than the distance.

In reply to Robert Durran:

By that logic you wouldn't consider yourself a tourist while strolling down the Malecon in Havana at sunset unless you were buying touristy things?

In reply to twentytwoangrymen:

Fair point - although I think I probably said "tourist mode" simply because I've never as far as I'm aware done the Callander shops/cafes thing despite having driven through Callander no end of times - hence it all feels a bit theoretical. I was in the middle of Edinburgh last weekend (family birthday meal) for the first time in maybe five years, and nearly got straight back on the train at Waverley as everywhere was so mad-busy and the general tourist throng was so dense that it almost made me panicky. I don't really do any of that kind of mainstream tourist stuff at all, at least not without a family connection reason.

Just catching up with this thread. So all tourists are bad and unwelcome?

Fair enough. Block the M5 with combine harvesters and farck the economy of Devon and Cornwall then.

In reply to Robert Durran:

dont come south then, theyre are plenty of places where you can pay £4 for a coffee.

. 

In reply to Dave Hewitt:

I'm the opposite. I love and embrace tourism, as a tourist. Before it all kicked off in Israel last year I fulfilled a lifetime dream of visiting Masada and the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. It was January and we had the sites to ourselves. No other tourists but we definitely were tourists. No crowds to deal with though. 

Being a tourist in the off season is quite rewarding.

In reply to mountain.martin:

I might come south. I just won't buy any coffee.

In reply to twentytwoangrymen:

I'm definitely the opposite of that - my only time spent outside the UK has been in Donegal (and then not very far), and I've never been on a plane.

In reply to Robert Durran:

If you have one of the Waitrose cards you can buy something really cheap, eg a banana, and get a free coffee.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Take into consideration rental costs, rates, raw product costs, electricity, staff wages, marketing, etc, etc. £3.00 is not a lot to pay for a coffee. So many people look at the costs and don't realise the overheads. I think you'll find that most people selling coffee for £3.00 a cup are only just covering their bills and not living the live of Riley.

In reply to Dave Hewitt:

Can you change your views? For me traveling is the most important thing in life. We live in the age of cheap travel. Take advantage of that. New countries, new cultures, new experiences, new friends. Travelling is the thing that keeps me going.

In reply to twentytwoangrymen:

That may be true, but it doesn't mean it is a price worth paying for what you get compared with making it yourself. Similarly with many campsites.

In reply to twentytwoangrymen:

I don't doubt that's good and enjoyable for you, but it's not my world at all. Not interested in travel - as mentioned upthread, I find it hard enough to drive 90 minutes to Ben Lawers! I just like pottering about locally, really. I've got my niece's wedding in Cumbria this coming weekend and it'll be nice to see family (there aren't many of us and we hardly ever get together), but I'll be glad and rather relieved to get back home on Sunday evening, for sure.

In reply to Opinan84:

In reply to the thread. All the people who're banging on about tourists, the OP being a tourist complaining about tourists. Read the OP, there's no mention of the t word.

In reply to aln:

I wish this thread had come up during the winter. The long nights would have flown by.

In reply to aln:

If only someone had thought to question what the word tourist means...........