UKH

I'm back in the alps after a 13 year break and climbing with a guide and one other to brush up on rusty skils. I'm a bit confused about our guide using a Beal Jammy to attach me to the middle of the rope when we are moving together (midi arete, Cosmique arete etc). Is this a thing now? 

I'm the heaviest of the group by about 20kg so I've ended up in the middle, with the guide either leading up routes, or at the back when descending.  The guide didn't like my traditional prusik ("nylon - too much friction') and so he took me shopping and we bought a 50cm Beal Jammy to replace my prusik, and a DMM ceros to use for a belay extender. 

But today as we were clipping in he used the Beal Jammy to tie me to the middle of the rope for us to move together. He said it would make it easier for us to change our distances.  Is this modern practice?  It involved just three turns of the beal jammy around the rope and then clipped into a screwgate caribiner (DMM ceros at least, so no risk of cross-loading) which was attached to my belay loop. No dual opposing caribiners.  My climbing partner is tied on to the end of the rope with a figure of eight, and the guide is taking in the coils. 

This set up didn't work well for me... the prusik would slide easily so depending on how we were moving I'd either end up coming up closer behind the guide or up behind my climbing partner. Picture the situation where the guide has done a tricky move and then marches off at speed on the easier section ahead on a ridge pulling the rope through my prusik and my partner (at the back) feels the rope tension and moves up until he realises he's close behind me. As you can imagine the day got a bit fraught at times and eventually I just demanded being tied on to the rope directly and put the Beal jammy away for normal prusik duties. I also said, so how is this going to hold you or me if I need it? He assured me it would but I'm not at all convinced.

Appreciate any advice on this as it doesn't make any sense to me. Thanks. 

In reply to mountain_stephen:

I'm convinced the prusik would hold if something bad would happen. Some guides do the same but with a Microtraxion or similar device. This might actually have worked better in your situation given the different walking paces within the group. Prusiks tend to slide when unloaded, which is what you experienced. 

Dual opposing biners is unnecessary with something like the DMM Ceros, assuming it was a safebiner version. 

Now, I do agree 100% with your decision to demand to be tied in directly given the discomfort and chaos it caused within your group. But theoretically, yes, this could work. 

In reply to mountain_stephen:

It wouldn’t be how I’d choose to attach a client (or indeed anyone) to the middle of the rope. Call my traditional but I like to be attached with a knot.

It’s also not a method that I was taught during any of my guide training. 

That said you do see continental guides doing that sort of thing all the time, so I’m sure it must have some merit. 

In reply to mountain_stephen:

What type of Prusik?

I don't know enough about guiding on that kind of terrain in the Alps to judge the method but if it's anything other than a classic prusik I'm not surprised that it was slippy! Jammys and similar, especially when new, often need more turns than home made prusik cords.

In reply to mountain_stephen:

This is a quite normal technique with a microscender or shunt, but prussiks aren't 'snatchy' enough on a low-angle fall to be effective. Works well for parties of three on glacier crossings though.

From a load-bearing point of view there is no problem. Indeed, on multi-pitch routes some continental climbers are now using a prussik directly attached to the anchor to belay the lead climber. However, here the problem may be that the prussik is too snatchy on a high energy fall and doesn't provide any shock absorption.

In reply to mountain_stephen:

I think some skepticism is healthy... I can see the logic of the system, but it obviously wasn't working well.

In reply to mountain_stephen:

Insist the guide  ties in using the same method!

I think I first saw this technique in the Alps about 22 years ago, climbing down off a route on parties coming up. I think it would have been a WC ropeman .

Regarding prussiks, there have been deaths using them on lead rope solo iirc. Petzl used to describe a method to protect lowering off single bolts, but that did not last long on their website.

Never seen the prussik tie on in any manuals or manufacturers product leaflet. Legally, I would guess the guide would be on very dodgy ground if found to be using methods against or not approved by climbing gear manufacturers if anything bad happened.

In reply to mountain_stephen:

Anybody seen some of these fancy systems in action in a real life situation. Horizontal alpine ridge, rope of three, either the tail end charlie or the middle man falls off and ends up dangling, or worse, down one side of the ridge, how would these systems work in real life. 

It was an annual discussion between myself and my regular climbing partner whether it was better soloing or moving together as a pair on alpine ridges, we had both seen the pros and cons of either method. When it comes to three on a rope it always struck us as lot more serious.

John Gresty

In reply to Rick Graham:

There has been plenty of well‑documented cases of a rope solo prussik literally melting through from its friction against the rope when there was even a small slack in the system and the soloist fell off and died. It might bite immediately, or it might slide a bit before biting fully – and any sliding of it generates lots of heat, even in a very short distance. DAV tested it and found 100% melting through with 5mm cord and just a pretty small amount of slack and a pretty short fall distance, where the cord failed well below its rated strength (due to frictional melting).

There is a reason friction knots are mostly used on ropes under load, after all.

There is no way I'd trust just a prussik to actually hold on a rope with slack and not melt through even in a shorter fall. The Jimmy might help a bit with its aramid core, but still.

I have never seen any such dubious method endorsed in any UIAA or UIAGM literature either. Are you sure your guide was solid?

Or am I the dumb one, totally missing something from the OP's description of their guide's setup? I might be, but it still befuddles me...

In reply to Frank R.:

The OPs guide, not mine. 

Not any/many stories of this systems failures, maybe just good luck .

I was concerned about only 3 wraps, I use at least four for abseiling depending on rope/ sling combo.

Edit, just reread original post, its not totally  clear if the knot was a standard  prussik or french prussik.

In reply to mountain_stephen:

A knot is the only answer.

Imagine a fairly sharp edged crevasse, the prussik is minded (held by the edge), rope feeds through it as you fall (probably dragging someone else along the snow).

Alpine Butterfly, to create a large loop, rethreaded overhand through harness. 

In reply to Frank R.:

Digressing, but 5mm is thin. 2/3 of the diameter of the rope it's on is consider optimal for bite, surface area etc..

In reply to Rick Graham:

Yes, I edited my post afterwards. Sorry.

In reply to ExiledScot:

Even with my 6mm cord used currently, that doesn't really change anything about friction knots only being suitable on ropes under load, does it. Any sliding creates heat. Friction knots may be absolutely indispensable when abseiling – and they do indeed save lives there – but as with all knots, it's all in the manner of how and where you use them.

In the OP's scenario, I'd have thought of it as simply not being tied into the rope in the middle at all...

In reply to mountain_stephen:

Guessing you used a classic Prusik knot? 

I found the Beal jammy a bit slidy when new. on my 8.5mm half rope needed a classic prusik knot with an extra turn for it to bite. Works fine with a bit of dirt.

Also assume the ceros was triple action? That’s standard now for tieing in in alpine. Ideally with a bar to stop cross loading.

Don’t climb in 3 but alpine butterfly for me into ceros if I had to go in middle. 

 

 

 

In reply to Frank R.:

I agree, there's a lot of science in prussiks, they'll hold under load, but depending on which knot have a failure too (several hundred kg), as you say they'll then generate heat (which may depending on use be a good thing to dissipate energy) and some will glaze, then not lock, others melt etc.. it's also important to use the right rope for prussiks, not just any random cord, as some will fail and melt easier than others. 

In reply to Frank R.:

Where can I find these? 

Do you have a link to these tests?

In reply to Alta Via:

I remember the rope soloing cases being mentioned in here:

Pit Schubert, Sicherheit und Risiko in Fels und Eis, vol. 1‑3.

The author founded and headed the DAV Safety Commission and was a member and then president of the UIAA Safety Commission.

You'd have to read the books in German (or other languages), though. I don't think they were ever translated to English.

Mind you, that's not really saying that friction knots are totally unsafe or anything like that. They are perfectly fine for their intended uses (with the right rope and cord combo) – which the above weren't.

In reply to Frank R.:

It's 20 plus years ago now when lots of rescue systems switch over to using double prussiks on back up lines, classic prussiks, normally 7mm on 11mm lsk. They were tested with 300-350kg loads(2 rescuers, stretcher, casualty) falling a 1-3 metres ie something else failing just as you edge transition which is probably the only time any slack is at risk of entering the system.

They held every time, under mechanical testing they'd slip around 7-9kn, but never fully melt or fail. Some glazing, but always intact. It's not possible under normal practices to create that level of load over a continuous time span. I can't recall all the exact details as it's been a while, but prussiks are incredibly safe 'if' used appropriately. However, fastening yourself to the middle of rope for travel over hazardous terrain isn't one of those uses. 

Note, there are several mechanical devices which now replicate the prussiks, but personally I'm not convinced they are better, just a heavier alternative to the humble prussik. 

In reply to Frank R: Rope soloing is very much an edge case, ( although whenever a new belay device appears it's all internet people talk about).

In reply to ExiledScot:

My memory of the tests is that double prusicks were very effective (as a 'static' anchor), with one of the pair failing (expected as part of the system) in some way. Most of the usual mechanical devices fail on lower shock loads due to cutting the rope / sheath etc).

(If I remember, this is discussed in the Life on a Line manual - more cave rescue oriented)

Edit: obv modern material may perform differently.

In reply to HardenClimber:

Yeah, many devices lock instantly where a prussik biting progressively dissipates energy, better for the rope and if the drop isn't vastly increased better for person. Even the early ropemans had more aggressive teeth and on later models were rounded off.

In reply to mountain_stephen:

I can see the advantage of being able to slide prussik along as you need to, but really theres not going to be that much need surely, I dont know about you but an alpine butterfly would be the preferred choice, after some practice I could tie them one handed in a few seconds.

If you wanted to use a prussik I'd use more turns and not a brand new cord to do it.

In reply to mountain_stephen:

In the depths of my unreliable memory I remember a trend for an instantly adjustable attachment for the middle person. I think there were various systems which included prussics, and even shunts. Maybe your guide is old enough to remember these too...

In reply to Frank R.:

I'm not arguing for or against the prusik approach (although wary of the prusik method). Personally I've only ever used an alpine butterfly in that circumstance.

What I would say about melting.... is that as climbers we've collectively been a bit slow and often missed tricks already learned by other fields. Although people refined and improved a lot, historically arborists (tree surgeons etc) lob a fat (like 13mm) rope over a branch, tie into one end  (or clip if it has sewn-eye in end) and climb up the other side using a prusik. So the branch works like a terrible pulley, or they use a cambium saver as a better "pulley". To descend they traditionally would use the same "VT" (Valdotain Tresse, prusik) sort of like a french prusik... sort of, and grab and pull the same prusik to "abseil" back (with the rope over the branch). I'm not saying that's best way or anything climbers should copy, but because they slide down ropes with prusiks, they use prusiks with very high sheath melting points. Beal Jammy has a polyamide sheath (melt 220C) but the tree equivalent (example Blue Water "VT prusik", although at 7mm it's more suitable for arborists big fat ropes) is made from Technora which melts at ~500C (that's nearly red glow temp!)

So why don't we as climbers all habitually use non meltable prusiks, sure at least one life could be saved if everyone did! 

In reply to CantClimbTom:

Have a like.

Thinking out loud, it might be because developing and testing/certification would be non economic compared to the potential sales.

Might also be jumped on , literally, by the lead rope  solo activists, with consequent liability issues.

Some manufacturers might comment or maybe just keep their head down.

In reply to Rick Graham:

Just looked on the Bluewater site.

They do a 7mm VT that is suitable for 8 to 9.5 mm ropes. About $28.

Anybody used one?

In reply to Rick Graham:

Also found it on the alpinesavvy website, of course.

In reply to mountain_stephen:

Can we forget all this talk about Prussiks. This is pretty definitive...

https://www.hownot2.info/post/knots-butterfly

In reply to mountain_stephen:

As the op on this thread, I can confirm a few things: 

1. The guide is fully certified, and was booked through a good UK company. The guide is from South America and has over 25 years experience in the Alps and Patagonia. He knew people and guides everywhere we went. 

2. We didn't get on very well as his English was poor and communication was hard. Even simple things like "left/right", "over/under", "stay in this place/that place" was hard as he often confused things, and if I started to go the wrong way due to his poor instructions, he got very angry. I learned to repeat back any instructions using different words and get him to confirm. I've never had such a challenge with comms on a mountain, it was a real eye opener for me on reinforcing the importance of good comms on the mountain, especially as I teach my children basic climbing skills. 

3. There were quite a few things he did in 5 days of climbing (classic AD routes around Mont Blanc) that I didn't like and in my view increased risk. I would always try to respect a guide with much more experience but I can't avoid being uncomfrotable when I see things being done that are contrary to what I was taught/trained and seems contrary to common sense. Maybe if his English was better he could have articulated why the things he did were safer or appropriate, but he couldn't. I'm not going to go into details on here as the topic will squirrel off. I might start a new thread once I've had time to unpack in my mind and review some of the photos I took.  In terms of training/refresher for the week, it wasn't quite what i was hoping for but sometimes you need to see bad to be able to focus on the right ways. 

4. As for the prussik/jammy - I don't recommend the Beal Jammy at all. It stayed on my harness unused the rest of our 5 days together after I insisted on being tied onto the rope. The Beal Jammy outer layer frayed as it was bent over near the join (which is rigid) - never under load, just looped on my karabiner on my harness. I popped back into Snell sports in Chamonix and they said this is a common problem they see with this product. Unfortunately, Beal always blame user error, but I can't see how this is avoidable in use. They kindly gave me some equivalent kevlar cord so I can make a classic prussik but have the advantage of the kevlar core. 

Others have had the same problem I see here:  https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/gear/beal_jammy_review-737699

In reply to CantClimbTom:

I think the Sterling Hollow Block is also a good option here, more specifically designed for climbing.

Same material, Technora. Weirdly tricky to buy in the UK, I bought mine in Moab. Thanks for the post on this!

In reply to Eduardo2010:

I've been keeping an eye open for that for quite a while. Never seen it sold in UK yet

No ideal how to get one here, so just bought via Amazon (yes, I know! *Not* first choice) shipped from US. Might take 7-10 days

In reply to mountain_stephen:

I've seen a few people doing this around Chamonix this year, a friend and I both asked our (different) Conville guides about it and both said it's dangerous and they wouldn't recommend doing it. 

This reminds me that our guide last year always tied us in with an overhand, not an alpine butterfly. Is there any reason this is an issue? 

In reply to Queen of the Traverse:

Potential pain in the butt to undo, but its the guides rope.. 

In reply to mountain_stephen:

In my experience, a prusik either grips properly instantly, or just slides and keeps sliding at whatever 'grip strength' it has if the load is constant - shock loading them has little or no effect.  So you basically need to make sure the prusik has enough turns to grip properly and not slide in the first place.   Now, let's think of the possible accident scenarios for your three with your easily-moved prusik:-

1) bottom man falls off - the rope will be pulled through your prusik until the top man stops it. The friction of your prusik will hopefully reduce the force on the top man and make it easier for him to hold the fall, but the friction will be low. Tight rope between the end men will stop your prusik from working.

2) you fall - you're going to slide until you reach the bottom man unless you slow yourself. Sliding that far will melt your prusik and it will fail.

3) top man falls past you - the rope's going to run through your prusik easily until it comes tight to the bottom man. You need to hold the fall when that happens. The rope will slip through your prusik until it becomes a crap pulley and the force on you will be lower than if you were tied in. But you might melt your prusik enough for it to fail.

Now, in all scenarios a lot depends on the severity of the fall. I guess in many situations the fall wouldn't be aggressive enough to cause a problem, but who knows, I'm not an alpinist.

In reply to ExiledScot:

The key thing there is that 7mm prusiks were being used on 11mm ropes. In a modern situation I suspect we're looking at 5-6mm prusiks being used on 9mm or thinner ropes.  That's a lot less material to take the load, and we all know abrasion resistance is proportional to diameter.  Would be interesting to run tests with modern gear.

In reply to Toerag:

Pedantic but relevent edit, its probably proportional to the square of the diameter, so even more important.