UKH

I'm entered in the Stonehaven MSBH sportive this Saturday, doing the redo which is 68 miles with 6000 ft of ascent, a pretty big distance for me with most of my rides being 20-40 miles.

While almost all my training rides have been on my heavier gravel bike (Genesis Croix de Fer), I was planning on using my carbon road bike, (Cube Agree GTC pro), banking on the much lighter frame to get me over the hills. However, the weather is looking pretty wet, and as I discovered when out on a ride on my road bike Tuesday morning (first time out on it this year), the brakes were noticeably (alarmingly at times!) softer than the gravel bike in the wet.

Which bike would you recommend for a long wet hilly ride: heavier gravel bike with good disc breaks which I'm more comfortable handling in the wet; or carbon road bike, significantly lighter and faster, but not as good handling in the wet?

In reply to MikeR:

What's the surface going to be like? Can your road bike handle slightly bigger and grippier tires than it has now? 

Edit: also, which one has the more comfortable riding position? The ride is almost 30 miles longer than your longer average, that's quite a bit. I'd say go for the most comfortable ride, regardless of a couple of pounts of weight. 

In reply to MikeR:

Sounds like you have already decided on gravel bike.

It will take longer and make the ride harder but if you are more comfortable and feel safer on it in the wet then that is the right choice.

Are the brakes on Cube disc or rim? Discs are much better in the wet.

In reply to Humphrey Jungle and VictorM:

Thanks both. It will be all on roads, mostly pretty smooth, but a few pot holes possible.

I'll have to check the Cube to see if it can handle bigger tires, but I don't think so. It's rim brakes, hence the notable difference in wet breaking.

As for which is more comfy, I'm not sure (haven't used the Cube much in the last couple of years), but probably the Croix de fer a bit more comfy.

In reply to MikeR:

You could put the tyres from the cube on to the genesis. Might look a bit strange but could do a lot for your rolling resistance and you can keep the better brakes. And saves a bit of weight possibly. 

In reply to MikeR:

Gravel bike. If you get tired you'll appreciate lower gears more than 2 or 3 kg of weight I reckon. 

If it's got knobblies on try to get slicks on. Anything from 28 to 35mm would be fine. 

In reply to MikeR:

Weight isn't really that important for bikes outside of pro races:

Lets assume that your carbon bike is 3 kg lighter than your road bike

6000 feet is 1828m

Additional energy due to the weight of the gravel bike: 1828m*3kg*9.81m/s^2 = 53.8 kJ

53.8 kJ = 14.9 watt hours

lets assume that you put out an average of 150 Watts, it would take you an extra 6 minutes to make up that extra energy due to the additional mass of the gravel bike. There would also be a small increase in energy getting the bike up to speed but this would be small in comparison.

Drag and rolling resistance will make a much bigger as to how difficult the course is and the gravel bike will definitely score worse on rolling resistance and possibly slightly worse on drag

This doesn't really the answer your question, but perhaps help you re phrase it, would you prefer the extra grip of the gravel tyres or extra speed of the road tyres?

In reply to MikeR:

Cheap option would be to put better brake pads on your Cube - KoolStop pads made a big difference to my old road bike.*

Sounds like 32mm slicks on the gravel bike could be a winner.

Only comment is that if you are currently running something like 42mm and single speed, you might find yourself a bit under-geared.

* - I don't 100% agree with the premis that disc brakes are just "better" than rim brakes in the wet, as I've not really had significant issues with mine. Equally, I've had issues with crappy disk brakes and pads!

In reply to MikeR:

Thanks all, some good suggestions.

The forecast is a bit uncertain so I'll make a decision tomorrow, but if it's not improved I'll have a look at swapping the tyres and peddles (gravel bike only has flat peddles just now).

In reply to MikeR:

No real advantage to switching to clipless if you train on flats and are happy on flats, pulling up wastes energy and even the pros only do it in flat out sprints

In reply to MikeR:

What about tyre pressures? I don't know sort of pressure gravelly tyres typically run at, but I'm guessing maybe lower than road tyres? If so swapping to semi slick road tyres with around 100psi might give much better rolling 

In reply to S Ramsay:

Hmm that's interesting. I'd always assumed that clipless was more efficient due to being able to apply power all the way round. I ride clipless quite infrequently so am certainly more comfortable with flats.

In reply to ripper:

Although it's technically a gravel bike I only really use it for commuting and the odd cycle tour so it already has semi-slicks at around 80-90psi. I've just had a look and they're actually only a couple of mm wider than the slicks on the road bike.

In reply to LastBoyScout:

This - change the brake pads to something better - SwissStop or similar, not Shimano.

And the comment somewhere above about only pros using a full pedal stroke with clipless pedals is prize-winning nonsense.  If you're doing a longer ride than usual with lots of climbing, your legs will thank you for clipless pedals and a lighter bike.  If you're not sure about a full pedal stroke, go out and ride a hundred metres or so using just one leg and get the hang of the action.  Then do the other leg, and then put the two together.  When one set of muscles get tired, switch to the others, or use them all.

If you're just churning away up hill, concentrate on a circular action and/or mix it up.  Also try riding standing up - not in a 'last ditch, I've got nothing left' style, but in an easy rythym, standing up straight, rather than hauling on the bars.  It engages some other muscles, and gives your backside a break (and anything else that might be going numb).

In reply to nniff:

Prize winning nonsense!? I suggest that you do some research before spouting bro-science on the internet even if it means accepting that there was no real point in spending years tottering around on clipless shoes in car parks and cafes.

Every single study that looks at this, ranging from published papers to GCN videos but done with a university concludes that while pulling up is mechanically effective it is inefficient, i.e. you’re wasting energy and tiring yourself out faster if you pull up on the pedals. Pulling up on the pedals is akin to using the afterburner on an fighter jet, you can achieve stunning results over short bursts but in the long run it will leave you more depleted than if you had just pedalled normally. For a sustained effort, multiple studies have found that the relationship between heart rate and power is identical whether you’re on flats or clips where you’re not pulling up on the clips and worse when the rider consciously pulls up on the clips.

There are reasons outside of sprinting power to prefer clipless pedals, you’re very particular about where the foot attaches to the pedal (although get this just off slightly and it does increase your risk of injury), they will be fractionally lighter and more aerodynamic but this is pretty irrelevant for sportive riding, or you may prefer the feel of being locked to the pedals. However, as the OP has indicated that they mostly ride in flat pedals anyway and it’s a sportive not a race these reasons probably don’t apply to them.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18418807/

https://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/fulltext/2007/06000/effect_of_pedaling_t...

https://www.globalcyclingnetwork.com/tech/features/are-flat-pedals-actually...

In reply to S Ramsay:

Just as importantly, you take your cosplay seriously.

In reply to MikeR:

Saving an extra couple of kilos will only shave a few seconds off your time up the Cairn-O-Mount, if your gravel bike has significantly lower gears I'd use that so that you can take advantage of not grinding away at a very slow cadence.

The road between Drumtochty Glen and the cemetery is in a horrendous state right now, potholes, cracks and loose gravel/rocks across the road

https://www.strava.com/segments/5287968

Its being ridden as uphill only so should be ok, not too many punctures.

The Garrol descent also has a lot of pot holes and loose gravel

https://www.strava.com/activities/11385293953/segments/3224373282655091324

I predict a lot of punctures as people try to weave their way through 2-way traffic.

All the other roads on the route are in excellent condition. 

What tyres do you have on the gravel bike? I find anything other than slicks lethal on wet roads.

In reply to MikeR:

Unless you are a big guy, and the tyres are less than 25mm those pressure are way too high. I'm 77Kg and run my 28mm slicks at 70psi. Much comfier and better grip.

Heres a good link to set your tyre pressures, most UK roads fall under the US definition of "Poor pavement/Chipseal" based on the photos.

https://silca.cc/pages/app-tire-pressure-calculator

In reply to Jon Greengrass:

Thanks, that's good to know. Are you doing any of the routes tomorrow?

The tyres on my gravel bike are all condition armadillos, 25mm.

Thanks for the link regarding tyre pressure. I'm around 73kg, so not big, but most of my rides are commuting with two heavy pannier bags. No idea how heavy me, bike and panniers are so I put in 100 as a guess (I assume it's in kg?? Couldn't see units anywhere), which gave tyre pressure of 75-83psi depending on speed (I'm averaging around 18-20 kph on my commutes, which have lots of hills).

In reply to MikeR:

25mm is very skinny by modern standards, Pro riders are racing on wider tyres than that these days, since they discovered wider tyres are faster on real roads that aren't velodrome smooth. I'd recommend upgrading to the widest tyres you can fit in your frame.

I live on the route, only a couple of miles from the Cairn-O-Mount. So I may well be riding on parts of the route but not as part of the event. I was out on my bike early last year before I had to run some errands for the family and the marshals and cyclists coming the other way were all cheering me on because they thought I was in the lead, LOL!

You won't need panniers tomorrow, take them off and save yourself a couple of kilos and a load of aero drag.

Have a great ride tomorrow, its a route with fantastic roads and views, and I hear the beer and foods good at the finish.

In reply to Jon Greengrass:

Probably a bit late to get a new set of tyres now, but something I'll look into for after, cheers.

Ha, I hope you basked in the glory! Give us a cheer if you see me passing, I'll be the one breathing out of his arse on the Cairn-O-Mount (or falling over as I run out of steam on the steep bit and don't have enough forward momentum to get my foot out, if I go clipless).

Pannier and rack will definitely be coming off this afternoon, no way I'm lugging all that weight around.

Thanks. I've done all the different sections of it before, just never all at once. Looking forward to it, and the beer tent after!

In reply to S Ramsay:

Oh dear.  What a shame that you managed to condense all that into "pulling up wastes energy and even the pros only do it in flat out sprints".  Such is the lot of an academic; to have their work condensed into a sound bite, extrapolated, and then cited as irrefutable evidence for the new case regardless of the distance travelled from the original study.  

Still, it puts me in mind of someone in the club.  He went on an ergometer and was told that he produced most power when he was spinning fast.  Unfortunately, he took that to mean that he's going to do better if he spins fast.  Now no-one wants him in a group because he'll blow up after 30 miles, having not used the big ring at all.  He's a powerful man too, but can't sustain his manic cadence when everyone else is just bowling along.  And no, he won't listen, because......

In reply to nniff:

I have read a lot of sources thoroughly and that is basically the conclusion, it is biomechanically inefficient, likely but not proven, because it makes it harder for your thighs to recover on the upstroke. You go find source which supports the use of clipless pedals for sportive rides. I approached the subject with an open mind and nearly bought clipless pedals before reading about them properly. Your analogy with your club rider is the wrong way round, like spinning at a high cadence, clipless pedals can be used to produce higher power outputs but it's unsustainable and will lead to a slower overall time in anything but a short sprint. Your 'oh dear' opening is misplaced until you provide a source for your claims. 

In reply to whoever: I don't think the upstroke is the main benefit of clipless pedals.  That would be that you have a large , non flexing shoe surface you can apply pressure to that is directly attached to the crank and doesn't waste energy flexing.  Even bike specific shoes need some softer rubber to provide grip against a flat pedal and ultimately that means some power is waster.  And modernclipless are a ton better than ye olde cleat and strap system

In reply to MikeR:

Thanks for the advice all. I went with the gravel bike in the end, and my legs certainly appreciated the extra gears on those climbs. A great event, I'd certainly recommend it if up in the area.

Now to enjoy some hydrating beers!

In reply to LastBoyScout:

This ^^   Clear rims and good pads are still plenty good in the wet, maybe not the initial "bite" but on any kind of longer descent they'll dry out pretty quickly and should be fine.

Changing to SwissStop on my town bike was a revelation, and Glasgow has plenty hills. (I actually find my newer town bike, which has discs, regularly has too much braking power and I lock up the rear all the time in the wet. (exacerbated by the brakes being "euro" style and my reactions are tuned to "back brake on the left" so I can't modulate as well in an emergency stop when  a car pulls out or something.

Edit - see it's too late   Glad you enjoyed it.