UKH

Good news!

"Two-time defending champion Jonas Vingegaard will compete in this year's Tour de France after overcoming serious injuries sustained earlier this season."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/articles/czvvz4lp9e0o

In reply to elsewhere:

Van Aert for the tour too.

https://www.eurosport.com/cycling/tour-de-france/2024/jonas-vingegaard-and-...

In reply to elsewhere:

UK Cycling ?

In reply to elsewhere:

Could be an interesting (not necessarily for good reasons) Tour. GC could be decided on day one if UAE go out all guns blazing, and Cav could get his record on stage three. Then some riders might leave early to prep for the Olmypics. I think it'll be a good year for the small teams and breakaway stage wins. 

In reply to elsewhere:

I know it's entry level compared to some of the knowledge on this thread but I have thoroughly enjoyed watching the second series of Unchained on Netflix.  I know it doesn't cover hardly any of the teams and has huge editorial bias but I found it a good watch!

In reply to elsewhere:

Slight panic going on at ChateauxBobling - how do I watch the TdF this year?  Oh OK, ITV again.  Panic over!

In reply to elsewhere:

I feel like this year's tour is already getting spoiled... Dan won't be presenting on Eurosport (he was the best one), it will be the last tour we can watch without some ridiculous huge discovery TV package (same thing meant I stopped watching F1) and it's likely to be a Pogacar walkover as the other contenders are all recovering from issues.

The only excitement for me will be the chance of Sir Cav breaking the record... I'll be sure to watch the sprint stages!

In reply to crayefish:

I'd love the brave knight's story to have fairytale ending.

In reply to crayefish:

I find the ITV coverage superior to Eurosport. Will they not have coverage of it next year? 

In reply to Gazmataz:

Yes, I like the weird posh TT beanpole former drug-cheat aesthete.

In reply to elsewhere:

It's the Italian part of France today.

No doubt the Medici did some underhand stuff to get it starting in Florence.

In reply to crayefish:

"A" record, not "the" record.  Its not the most stacked TdF for sprinters so fingets crossed.   Astanna have pushed the boat way out for him.

Same bloody adverts on ITV4, just who do they think watches the Tour!?

In reply to felt:

He's my fave

In reply to bouldery bits:

Me too. You see this, another side of Dave?  youtube.com/watch?v=R60iAwh6e6I&

In reply to Pedro50:

Donkey afficionados, timepiece perverts and ailing pensioners, apparently.

In reply to elsewhere:

It looks like a very tough first day, 206k and currently it’s approximately 35c 🥵

Edit 38c?

In reply to elsewhere:

What a fantastic finish. 

In reply to Andy Clarke:

Magical.

In reply to Christheclimber:

This and the last tour were some of the most mountainous ever... the sceptic in me wonders whether the frenchies are trying their best to preserve Merckx's record.  Hmmmm

In reply to crayefish:

You do know Merckx was from Belgium don't you? Why would you think they are trying to preserve it?

In reply to Glug:

No shit sherlock.  Who do you think the French would be more amicable to... the Brexity brits or their French speaking Belgian brothers?

In reply to Andy Clarke:

Great to see the old fox and the young kid prevail.

Three jerseys for the team - yellow, green and white.

In reply to crayefish:

Muppet😒

I didn't realise ITV4 were doing live coverage, so if you're having a lazy sunday, monday, tuesday...

In reply to elsewhere:

Watching on ITV4, not a fan of the musical interludes. 

Seems the wit has gone from the commentary also.

In reply to eschaton:

Still better than the old Phil & Paul double act.

In reply to Glug:

What crawled up your arse?  🤣

In reply to crayefish:

People who are just a bit thick, thinking they are clever😉 I'm sure you realise what an idiot you come across as, first implying Merckx was French and then suggesting Cav was a brexiteer when he's from the isle of Man😒

Looks like Vingegard is in good form to match Pogacar, fingers crossed for an epic battle.

In reply to Glug:

That accolade resides with you given that I have never once suggested Mercks was Belgian (being a cycling enthusiast I'm fully aware he's Belgian) and I also didn't suggest Cav was a brexiteer.  Brits was the term used... remember we left the EU?  Try reading properly before you jump up on your high horse old boy.

In reply to Rampart:

Ailing pensioner - count me in.

In reply to crayefish:

I don't think the French particularly enjoyed Merckx dominating their race.  At the end of the day, the TdF isn't about sprinters- thats just a side show.

You can't tailor the route just to make it easy for them.

In reply to GrahamD:

In an attempt to get things back on track.

Cav for the win today?

Thumbs up = yes

Thumbs down = no

Ill be going full radio silence, phone off, radio off until I get home and can watch it with the kids.

In reply to ablackett:

Yes, all this silly sniping on what should be a light-hearted fun thread leaves me a bit board.

In reply to crayefish:

We did leave the EU, but the isle of Man was never in the EU.

In reply to elsewhere:

Anyone else struggling to find the live coverage on ITV this morning?

I can find highlights and the entire stage for Saturday and Sunday but nothing for today...

In reply to Bobling:

Monday 1 Jul

yesterday's highlights 1pm

live 2pm

today's highlights 7pm

https://www.tvguide.co.uk/channel/itv4

I'm guessing it gets shoved around the schedule and between itv4 and STV (for me) if they have football coverage.

In reply to elsewhere:

Cheers, it's just not being shown live till 2 then! Frustrating but glad I'm not just being dense.

In reply to ablackett:

Beware, if Cav does win, there may be a mention on the news on TV or the BBC website. I've been caught out by them before!

In reply to cragtyke:

Yes staying in purdah is very difficult in the modern era. The BBC announced the result of something on the 6.00 news despite themselves offering highlights at 7.00. Irritating.

UCI experimental rule changes, crashes "didn't count" in final 5km rather than the usual 3km today, same time if 3s gap within the group crossing the line rather than 1s plus a system of yellow cards for riders and drivers - two cards and you're out of the tour de france. Strange restrictions on radios - only two riders per team have radios?

https://www.uci.org/pressrelease/the-uci-introduces-new-measures-to-promote...

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/racing/yellow-cards-to-be-trialled-in-pro-cyc...

At least it's not sock lengths.

In reply to elsewhere:

Unlucky that Cav's chance didn't materialise but at least he didn't suffer really bad luck and go down.  Let's hope he a shot in stages 5 and 6, especially the latter.

Lovely for Girmay though!

In reply to elsewhere:

I note the Col du Galibier, which rises to 2642m. I think that the highest that the Tour has been this time prior to today is the Col de Valico, at 930m. So do any of the teams take their riders to a higher level, when not racing (I suspect not) during the period of eating/rest after the end of a stage? So otherwise how do the riders acclimatise to the height? Surely some of them will suffer at least a little altitude sickness, and even a headache does not help when you are racing your heart out.

At least the stage ends up down in Valloire at 1413m.

In reply to veteye:

Presumably the speed with which they go up and down again limits the symptoms (along with the training)

In reply to veteye:

They do altitude training camps before the tour, most of the contenders will have come straight from one of those camps.

In reply to veteye:

As said, altitude training is normal and essential otherwise the riders who lived in the Alps or Colombia would have a huge advantage. Mostly this will be training at altitude, hill reps of Teide in Tenerife being popular. I recall Bradley Wiggins saying he slept in an hypoxic tent at home prior to his Tours with Sky.

In reply to 65:

Bradley Wiggins saying he slept in an hypoxic tent at home

He was also on a cabbage soup diet, the build up of gas in the tent was apparantly quite impressive...............

In reply to elsewhere:

And they're off.

Can Vinnygor handle the altitude?

In reply to Tricky Dicky:

Shame about Wiggins current predicament.

In reply to elsewhere:

Tufty's on the prowl! It's going to be an exciting July

In reply to nufkin:

Wow. Statement of intent by Pogačar

but I was amazed that Vingegaard stayed with his attack nearly to the summit, only 9 seconds down at the top. He faded in the last 10km, but given it’s his first real test since the crash, that’s a good performance I think

and a good day for Evenepoel- second on GC, with the ITT to come- he must figure he can take some of that time back there. 
 

overall- I thought it might have been over already, given the form Pogačar has been in, and the injuries to the other 3 main contenders- he’s got a clear advantage now, but not the killer blow it might have been- Vingegaard has got a week of flat stages and a rest day to get some more race condition back

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

Vingegaard was looking isolated, UAE had strength in depth.

Evenepoel - it would be great to have three contenders.

In reply to elsewhere:

True, but I would think he's pretty happy with his performance on the climb, he should be getting stronger as the tour goes on and the last week looks brutal.

In reply to elsewhere:

Yes- the turnaround in relative strength of Visma Lease a Bike and UAE Team Emirates in less than a year is dramatic. 
 

Overall, I can’t see anyone other than Pogačar winning- but looks promising for it being an actual competition rather than a procession. 
 

And from Pogačar’s perspective- if he doesn’t beat Vingegaard this year, he’s never going to…

In reply to elsewhere:

But given the concensus was that he would struggle in the first few days and get better by the third week he looked comfortable until Pog attacked and  only lost a few seconds before the top. 

I was worried before the start that it might be similar to last year's vuelta, that isn't going to happen, but that I'm thinking that strength might be important later on is a good sign for exciting racing. 

He hasn't matched the acceleration of the top two when Pog has attacked uphill , but he has looked impressive closing that gap the flatter run ins. He may well narrow the gap in the TT. 

In reply to elsewhere:

He's done it!

In reply to Andy Clarke:

Well done Cav, record breaker!

In reply to Andy Clarke:

Awesome to watch! He might be getting on a bit, but that was a masterclass of experience of surfing the right wheels over the raw power of the yoofs. He made it look easy in the end. 

In reply to KeithWakeley:

Wow!!! I somehow thought he wouldn’t!!!!

In reply to Abr:

I was a doubter, makes it all the sweeter.

In reply to elsewhere:

Not a perfect lead out, and a bit chaotic but that  allowed him to use his guile and experience to burst free. Good effort for an old boy!

In reply to Andy Clarke:

Unbelievable!

Several generations of retired sprinters will be shaking their heads in wonderment.

Fantastic to see every rider wanting to congratulate him.

In reply to earlsdonwhu:

Classic Cav surfing between lead out trains.

How many more sprint stages before Nice (TT)?

In reply to elsewhere:

- utilizing every gap there were and making some where there were none.

Brilliant sprint by the old man.

In reply to Stefan Jacobsen:

Another sprint stage on Thursday...

In reply to Stefan Jacobsen:

It was brilliant camerawork to catch the action. It showed just how very good he is, at one point really fighting for position, the next finding the right wheels and then timing the final sprint.

In reply to Wimlands:

Really enjoyed watching that, brought back memories of his earlier wins, always amazing to watch him pick the right wheels, find the gaps etc.. Will the fight to win die down a bit now for the other staged?

In reply to elsewhere:

Unbelievable!!!  I missed the race as my boss turned up and of course it was impossible to watch the highlights on youtube without the result being spoiled, but so bloody happy for Cav!!!!  Emotional

In reply to RX-78:

No chance! It's in his blood. He'd pull out now if that was all that mattered. My biggest concern for Cav is the adjustment he'll have to make when he is no longer racing. Plus, I think he's only 3 wins off Cippolini's record for number of stage wins across all three grand tours. 

In reply to 65:

He' close to Cippolini, but he's still 10 behind Merckx over all 3 grand tours.

In reply to crayefish:

I managed to avoid all headlines and social media and my husband never mentioned it, so it was a total shock for when I watched the highlights at 10pm

In reply to Glug:

Ah, thanks. I guess the Cippi record is only for sprints.

In reply to Glug:

Seb Piquet missed a trick there in the post race interview, he could have asked Cav if he was now thinking about breaking the Merckx record for most GT stage wins.  I wonder if Cav would have realised it was a joke or got up and thumped him.

In reply to 65:

Pogačar has 12 at 25- Cav should bag as many more as he can to make sure he isn't caught down the line 

In reply to Only a Crag:

Cav told him not to break his record😁

In reply to elsewhere:

Winning more stages would be great but surely his main ambition will be to beat the broom wagon over the alpine passes and survive until Nice?

In reply to kevin stephens:

If it was the normal finish I'd agree, but then his motivation would be to win the final sprint, not to just roll over the finish with a glass on champagne. I can't see an uphill TT having the same appeal for him. I'd go the other way if you offered him to finish with a win on stage 16 he'd take that. 

In reply to RobAJones:

I hadn’t realised that. Out goes the ethos of not challenging the yellow jersey on the last day then?

In reply to RobAJones:

It's his last TdF and, given how much respect he has for the race, I wouldn't be surprised to see him finish even though it is a TT final stage.

In reply to Graham M:

I agree, but his and the teams priority will be attempting to win more stages. Do you think his team will risk other riders missing the time cut after stage 16? 

In reply to Glug:

and Pog said that he didn't think that he could.

In reply to RobAJones:

Cav is probably still Astana's best bet for a stage win, he's only once(?) been eliminated for missing the time cut in the Tour, the team is built around him, betting on Cav has paid off already and he's great PR for the team sponsors.

I don't think they'll change a winning formula or gamble (hiring Cav in 2023).

In reply to elsewhere:

Which is why I said it would be their priority, but I think stage 16 is the last sprint stage. 

2018? but in the flip side he's only finished 2 tours since 2013. One of those was 2021 where he made the cut by a few seconds. Then he had Paris and the Green Jersey to motivate him and possibly more importantly his team to make the cut 

Big time. 

Edit 

Not the best time to get a mechanical. 

In reply to RobAJones:

Good points.

I think he'll get to Nice unless he crashes, with the assistance of teammates* if necessary as he is the star.

*all or almost all of the team's eggs are in the Cavendish basket.

In reply to RobAJones:

I hadn't realised he'd had such a patchy finishing record.

In reply to GrahamD:

I don't know if I'd call it patchy if it is due to events that are out of his control.

In reply to elsewhere:

What do all the brown markers on stage 9 profile mean?

https://www.letour.fr/en/stage-9

In reply to Maggot:

💩 stops?

No idea, I'll have a look in my guide.

Nope. Nothing in the guide.

JLS beat me to it.

In reply to Maggot:

Gravel sectors. I.e. non tarmac road surface.

In reply to JLS:

Ah, thanks. Always a good one to watch. (after the mountains)

Cav fined for draughting and Philipsen relegated for deviating from his line in sprint.

In reply to elsewhere:

More importantly Cav was also docked time so he takes the lead in the Lanterne Rouge. Merckx hasn't even got one of those on his palmares.

In reply to elsewhere:

So pretty much no change in GC today and no real surprises. 

In reply to Jon Greengrass:

Best and worst at the same time? Give the man a knighthood.

In reply to Rampart:

Hope he makes it to Nice, meanwhile can we get back to the actual race ? Social media seems to have forgotten all the other great stuff happening.

In reply to elsewhere:

Random questions for aficionados:

Is there a cut-off time in a TT?

Has there ever been a TT wholly or partially on cobbles?

Anybody seen the Devil yet?

In reply to Fredt:

Yes, there is a cut for all stages, the percentage is based on a combination of expected stage difficulty and the average speed of the winner.

As the average speed on flatish TT's is high the cut off is usually generous enough to allow you to kiss your wife, if you think it's worth the fine 

Even so there have been occasions when the time limit has been ignored/changed. I think elsewhere is correct in that Cav has only been eliminated once, but I can think of at least two occasions when he (and others) missed the time cut and was later reinstated 

Don't know but there wasn't much tarmac in the early days of the tour 

Edit Although the first TT wasn't until 30's and they tended to be a lot longer than they have been recently 

In reply to Fredt:

The cut off time for any stage is a function of the stage (rated 1 to 6).  For the individual TT it usually gets the most generous 6 allowance, which is within 30% of the winning time.

In reply to Fredt:

I'm pretty sure there was a glimpse of him on one of the first stages, though the camera didn't linger.

In reply to RobAJones:

The very early tours were a comparable distance (France was big back then too) and duration (3 weeks) but only about six stages of 400km on mainly gravel roads using a fixed wheel.

They didn't do the high mountain passes* but absolutely brutal.

*I guess if the main roads were gravel the high mountain passes were suitable for driving livestock or pack animal routes at best.

ITV4 7pm Mon 8 July - rest day, highlights of week 1

Sprint stage on Tuesday, gingers crossed for Cav.

I'll leave the typo.

In reply to elsewhere:

Isn't the story of Eugene Christophe breaking his forks and then carrying his bike to the next village,  on the descent of the Tourmulet,  from one of the very early Tours? Getting a time penalty because a child helped him, by operating the blacksmiths bellows, while he welded a repair, seemed a bit harsh

Unbelievably so

In reply to RobAJones:

Quite right too.  Next thing you know riders will be stopping off for a quick snog.  Nip it in the bud now, I say.

In reply to elsewhere:

surprised no comments on stage 9- great to watch.

I notice Wiggo has been on LA's show: youtube.com/watch?v=LNAAHFWeqZ8&

In reply to magma:

He really must be skint!!

In reply to elsewhere:

Well he’s up there in position with 6km to go, keep your ‘gingers’ crossed.

In reply to Christheclimber:

Oh well, no luck for Cav despite the best efforts of my gingers.

Philipsen must be relieved to get a win.

In reply to elsewhere:

Philipsen looked very strong, unfortunately Cav was well out of it. 

In reply to elsewhere:

What was that smashed up bike all about? When he got himself out of the ditch it was in one piece, did he trash it at the end?

Unlucky to damage his ankle.

In reply to elsewhere:

All about the race for green now.

In reply to GrahamD:

Well I didn’t see that coming. Pogačar must be crestfallen after that- nearly a 40 second lead at one point, but caught on the 2nd last climb, and then beaten in a sprint. Big mountains to come- I think he’ll have wanted to take a bigger lead over Vingegaard into those than he has. 
 

Advantage Vingegaard?

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

That was very impressive from Vingegaard, especially considering his crash in April of this year. Game on.

In reply to Christheclimber:

Very much so - hopefully it won't temper Pog's ranging attacks, though, since they're making for exciting viewing

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

Hard to say. Jonas went very deep there and it looked as though Tadej didn'tbury himself over the top.. Also, Jonas' mountain domestiques didn't cope with UAE.  Over 3 weeks it might tell, and Tadej is still over a minute up.

I don't think Tadej was expecting to be beaten in the sprint, though.  What a tour.

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

Did we find out what happened to Pogi's tyre?

Fantastic stage, go Jonas!

Still a good lead for Pogacar, but no longer looking invincible.

In reply to GrahamD:

Do you think Pogacar has it in him to race conservatively to defend rather than attack?

Roglic did what Roglic does - he crashed. A real pity.

In reply to elsewhere:

In last 3km so awarded same time as Evenepoel. But- yes, he does come off a lot. And even though he didn’t lose the extra 40 seconds in the end, he’s still over 2 mins down- I can’t see him making the podium. 

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

That really surprised me, it seems that the 3km rule which used to just be for flat stages has been applied to all stages which aren't mountain top finishes.

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/turin-opening-sprint-test-for-modified-uci...

Some modification is surely needed to that rule which means that if the rider was at fault, or caused the crash they aren't credited with the same time.  

While we are on with rule changes - the concussion protocol clearly isn't fit for purpose.  It would be much safer if a rider is suspected of having concussion they are put in the team car and assessed properly then dropped back into the race with the group they were with when they crashed, or if it's near the end they are just driven to the finish and start again the next day.  It's not perfect, but it has to be better than what happend to Aleksandr Vlasov.

Fantastic to see there's at least one person (Vingegard) who can match (and beat!!) Pogacar on a good day.

I doubt Pogacar on a good day can be dropped by anyone.

A great day for Girmay but another terrible day for Roglic.

Again polka dot jersey holder Abrahamsen as sprint leadout, that's incredible and up there with van Aert in green as mountain super domestique in 2022.

In reply to elsewhere:

And he'll be off again tomorrow to bag the 2 polka points 

In reply to Maggot:

And probably secure the super-combatif doorstop while at it

In reply to elsewhere:

I have to agreed with Cav, his relegation on the stage seems a bit harsh in view of the slowing rider he needed to avoid.  He'd been looking quite good in the run-up to the sprint but didn't get the sort of break needed to beat a rampaging Grimay.

In reply to nufkin:

There isn't any competition for that one so far.  It would be really tough if it went to someone top 3.

In reply to elsewhere:

I see that Roglic has pulled out after his crash yesterday.

In reply to Christheclimber:

Blast! Or something stronger.

In reply to elsewhere:

Covid in UAE camp with Ayuso pulling out. That would be bad if it spread.

In reply to GrahamD:

Just spotted the devil with his trident on the Pla d'Adet.

In reply to felt:

Yes, well.  That was spectacular.

In reply to GrahamD:

Yep, that was a great ride from Pogacar and Yates putting a marker down and improving Pogs GC time. 

In reply to Christheclimber:

Disappointed for Healy, really hope he wins a stage, but he must be in danger of wearing himself out. 

In reply to RobAJones:

Looks like Covid has hit Ineos as well as Ayuso.  What a tragedy if Covid has an impact on the Jerseys.

In reply to GrahamD:

Funny how being yellow, white, green or covered in red spots all indicate illness.

In reply to GrahamD:

I didn't think Pogacar would be able to drop Vingegaard after the Dane's stage win, but Pog managed it.

Maybe it's too early or not enough lead yet, but Pogacar appears not to have it in him to race conservatively.

In reply to elsewhere:

I hoped, the stage would be favourable for Vingegaard, and apparently he is not too unhappy with his own performance. He said, he produced the wattage he expected, but just couldn’t follow Pogi. Hats off for todays winner! Tomorrow is another day!

In reply to Stefan Jacobsen:

I got the impression that Vingegaard felt that he would be a better competitor to Pogacar over today's longer mountain stage. More in the way of stamina? So will today's race be a closer run thing?

In reply to veteye:

Possibly, but has he got the team to make it hard from the start today? Would be pretty risky to leave himself isolated on the last couple of climbs. Will be intresting to find out, of it's hard from the start the time cut might be a issue for some. 

In reply to veteye:

I have that impression too. And we have the Alps coming up. My fingers are crossed!

In reply to Stefan Jacobsen:

One slightly nervous glance from Vingegaard and Pog has pounced. What a brutally raw contest this is becoming. Great courage shown by  Vingegaard but Pog looks majestic.

In reply to Andy Clarke:

Looking at Cav cross the line less than 2 minutes inside the cut, those sentiments apply at the other end of the race as well, especially on a stage like today 

In reply to Andy Clarke:

Good to see that Cav just made the cut, he looked absolutely knackered. Respect to him for carrying on with the race after his record breaking sprint win, good job it’s a rest day tomorrow. 

In reply to Christheclimber:

Will I have chance to watch the highlights, which presumably start at 7pm, before putting a mask on and swapping channels for the football?

In reply to veteye:

You should just about manage it. I had a problem with having to switch between the TDF and Wimbledon this afternoon and missed the end of the race but managed to turn over to see Cav falling over the line.

In reply to Christheclimber:

As it turned out, England were Vingegaard to Spain's Pogacar. Gave it our best shot but were beaten by a better opponent.

In reply to Andy Clarke:

As Vingegaard puts it; He and his team did their absolute best. Pogacar was just better.

In reply to Stefan Jacobsen:

Some eyebrow raising numbers from yesterday’s stage.

 https://lanternerouge.com/2024/07/14/greatest-climbing-performances-of-all-...
 

Both were faster than Pantani yesterday despite having a headwind, Pogs effort was the best of all time.

In reply to ablackett:

Hopefully all is kosher - Pog did point out that Visma and Jonas were doing most of the work

In reply to ablackett:

equivalent of 7.27w/kg for 39.5 minutes at sea level , two days on the trot .... that is absolutely mental 

I love cycling (just back from Stelvio and Mortirolo) and love watching the GT's but I am starting to get a little uneasy about these power numbers. 

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

Not only that but after long rides and in serious heat.

I ran from home to half-way up to the Plateau de Beille yeterday to watch it. When I left the house it was already 31℃ and running any section without shade was seriously withering. By the time I saw P & V they'd spent maybe 5 hours in the saddle already, including 4 serious climbs, almost all of it in direct sun. To then break records for sustained power output in those conditions is mind boggling.

In reply to john arran:

Have the gains achievable from nutrition, training and recovery caught up or overtaken those only available by nefarious means of a couple of decades ago? I have no idea.

I'll suspend any suspicion until some credible evidence of underhand tactics appears, mainly because I love the sport so much I can't really bear for it to go through another drug-scandal phase.

In reply to john arran:

and into a head wind lol

So there is podcast gaining a lot of interest called "Ghost in the Machine" I found it from Inner Ring comments/Rouleur/and GCN (link below)

youtube.com/watch?v=LxEyO9GyOA0&

It's a 7 episode investigation into mechanical doping. I'm a few episodes in. A couple of interesting bits for me a) the very first day the UCI started testing for motors, the very first bike they checked had a motor (Femke Van den Driessche) . She was banned for 6 years and fined.....they have never found another motor since.

and b) they use ipads to scan the bikes. really? what app do they use and what xray tech is built into an ipad? Is this just for show? where is the big xray machine like you see at airports? 

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

Ipads have a compass, so they have a magnetometer, so they can detect magnets.  As far as I know you can't make a motor without a magnet (can you - genuine question?) so I would guess that's how it works.

In reply to 65:

I think the UCI should outsource the mechanical doping checks to an independent (like WADA for drugs) rather than do it themselves. There is too much conflict of interest as all parties stand to lose if they found a motor in a bike at a major race.

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

To be fair I think the headwind line was overstated at best. Maybe the last couple of km once above the tree line, but where I was it was still as a millpond - which just made it feel all the hotter!

In reply to john arran:

In my (limited) experience, cycling in hot weather is far better than running. The cooling effect of even a slight breeze (self-generated if need be) is non-trivial. From what I remember, high 20s is 'just nice' on a bike, but starting to get unpleasant for running. Been a while since we've had high 20s in the UK though

Of course 'racing' rather than 'riding' is a different ball game...

In reply to 65:

Same here. But I’m struggling to think of another sport where the top one or two individuals are better than the rest by such a large margin. 
Johannessen, in the break yesterday, on being passed by P and V: “it’s like I don’t do the same sport as them”.

In reply to rsc:

In tennis, grand slams are almost always won by one of the top 2 to 4 players at the time.

In athletics, often we see runners going for years without losing a single major race (Ed Moses, Usain Bolt, etc.)

I don't think cycling is very different. Right now we seem to have two riders performing notably better than the rest, and the format of the event seems perfect for highlighting the differences. Note that the riders had gone close to 200km before the difference became apparent. Seb Coe kicking in a 1500m final and leaving the field for dead was almost indistinguishable, albeit at a much shorter distance.

That said, I really do hope that they're both clean. Would be such a shame otherwise.

In reply to Christheclimber:

Did you see the clip of Cav, exhausted at the finish being told they had to cycle 16km more to get to their hotel 😀

In reply to ablackett:

In 2023.

 "837 tests carried out at stage start using magnetic tablets, 160 at stage finishes using either backscatter or x-ray transmission technology"

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/racing/uci-carried-out-997-checks-for-motor-d...

Perhaps they settled on the Ipad after scanning ebikes which are obviously ebikes and the ones that might be used for cheating with a less obvious motor & battery, see below.

https://www.taiwantrade.com/products/detail.html?productid=2299096

Anybody with an ebike and a phone or compass might be able to tell us if an Ipad is likely to be effective, although the Ipad app might be processing the signal to give better detection than just a twitch of the needle on a phone or compass.

In reply to john arran:

Yes, I was thinking about Bolt. How did his winning margins compare with Pogaçar’s? One of the mathematicians one here might help with that!
Tennis is different because of the knockout format of tournaments, I think: the strongest get through however narrow their wins. It’s a valid question how the team element of pro cycling affects the apparent dominance of the top individuals (and that’s one of the reasons it’s so fascinating).

In reply to Wimlands:

In fairness, the 16km was all downhill.

In reply to rsc:

It's a team sport, it's not purely Pogacar vs Vingegaard even in an individual time trial or the last part of a mountain finish as they're protected and supported by team mates in the days (weeks? months?) before. I don't think you could easily compare with individual sports.

In reply to rsc:

Off the top of my head Armand Duplatis , pole vault, (has the best 8 pole vaults in history having jumped 8cm higher than anyone else) and prior to him Sergey Bubka (between the 2 they have 32 of the best 33 jumps in history)

Until his recent trouble Adam Peaty was so far ahead of the competition that at one point he had the 20 best 100m breaststroke times in history.  His world record is still nearly a second faster than anyone else.

Some others have already been named and theres definitely plenty of others (could go right back to Don Bradman).

Not that this proves anything, particularly with cycling's history, but I think we need to be careful about just using performance to prove nefarious practices.

In reply to Ian Patterson:

On a lighter note, before the resumption of hostilities, isn't the Polka dot jersey / black shorts look way more classy than that all over mr blobby look ?

In reply to GrahamD:

A couple  of days ago I noticed that even the frames of his sunglasses were white with red spots, just to complete the overall look.

But its quite new, maybe last year and drew some remarks from the commentators on French TV on its first appearance

In reply to GrahamD:

Does it upset anyone else that Pog's sunglasses aren't the same shade of yellow as his helmet.  I guess his sponsors don't do them in that colour, or perhaps they aren't alowed to make them in 'TdF yellow'?

In reply to elsewhere:

The Di2 battery is massively over sized for a single days racing, so that's the power supply sorted. Also the controls are already built into the shifters. Motors exist which do not have permanent magnets (ultrasonic / electromagnets ) rendering the ipad detection pretty useless. This then becomes a thermal detection issue. Apparently the UCI does use thermal imaging cameras (FLIR devices) on some of the motorbikes riding along the peleton.  Maybe some cooling system could be used?

Some people are starting to question random bike changes during races. 

JV did the second greatest climbing performance of all time on sunday (only beaten by Pogs climb same day) 3 months after breaking his collarbone, multiple ribs and puncturing his lung. 2 weeks in hospital and not joining his team for outside training until June. Its hard to comprehend that this is down to better nutrition/training/recovery... but it's all we have. 

The fact the UCI are looking suggests it's probably happening or has happened more than we know.  Would the UCI make it public if they found a motor in a top riders bike? It could spell the end of the sport...certainly most sponsors would pull out. But quite a few people would be in the know , the chances of them all remaining tight lipped for ever....hhmm. I think it's a very interesting topic. 

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

Ha ha! It might be oversized for shifting but how much oomph will 3.7Wh give to someone cranking out 500+W for best part of an hour?

Also the controls are already built into the shifters. Motors exist which do not have permanent magnets (ultrasonic / electromagnets ) rendering the ipad detection pretty useless.

True, but efficiencies are low (<<50%). So you're getting about 1-2Wh of usable power.

Any reasonable suggestions? 

I beg to differ. Any interesting questions are completely swamped by uninformed speculation and mud-slinging.

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

I think wiring, electromagnet coils and particularly ultrasonics would be highly visible for the x-ray techniques the tour is reported to use as the required materials have high atomic masses.

In reply to Ian Patterson:

I think we need to be careful about just using performance to prove nefarious practices.

Completely agree- I’m looking for reassurance that I can believe what we’re seeing. Useful examples, thanks! 

In reply to Marek:

3.7wh "could" produce approx 40 watts for 5 mins 

None - just having a debate 

That's the problem with World Tour, it's been swamped with cheating since its inception, so doesn't really earn the right to receive the benefit of the doubt. 

We have riders smashing EPO era cyclists records by minutes. We now have riders who can hold 7w/kg for 40 minutes, two days on the trot who are clean. Its put down to improved nutrition/recovery and training and better equipment. Fair enough. Can we apply a "moores Law" to this and expect 9w/kg for 40 mins regularly in a few years time with continued improvements in understanding nutrition/training/recovery and better equipment? The assumption is we probably should, because it's happening now before our very eyes.

We know motors have been tried in other parts of bike racing, because UCI caught a cheat. We have ex pros making accusations (funny whirring sounds from bikes/ sudden accelerations/ rear wheels spinning at speed after crashes .... nothing proven (apart from the first and only caught racer) 

I think its sensible to have some cautious reservations of just how much improvement there has been over the last few years and hope the UCI is doing a good job at keeping it a level fair playing field.

In reply to rsc:

Not cycling, but we now have a British school girl running 800m when preparing for her A levels, in a time that, when I was doing my A levels, was only achievable by East Germans and Soviets who had spent years on pretty severe inhancement programs. There have been advances in spikes and tracks, but I think the technological advances in cycling have been greater. 

In reply to RobAJones:

Yes, I see Pogaçar credits tyres as making the most difference- he’s using 30mm tubeless. Must get some!

In reply to rsc:

..and specially round wheels

They usually have a doping question from the press at this time of the tour. Was it Froomie who was quizzed about his (5-6W/kg?) performance a few years ago? Yet TP, 10% faster than the best doped climber with sustained 6-7W/kg seems ok? Have riders stopped releasing power data?

In reply to magma:

Does anyone know how many possible intermediate sprint points there are between here and Nice ?  Theres a race brewing thete !

In reply to elsewhere:

There's 20 available for first at today's IS point.

Mark

In reply to GrahamD:

Assuming the sprinters aren’t going to figure in the remaining hilly stage finishes, they are left with 4 intermediate sprints 20 points for the win. One of those I reckon is too far into a mountain stage for the sprinters to figure in the points so there are really only 60 points up for grabs for Philipson to make up his 32 point deficit.

If however Bini gets 3x 6th place or better in those sprints his lead is almost certainly assured short of Philipson doing something astonishing in the last mountain day or the time trial.

In reply to magma:

Interesting coincidence that the discussion and interviews at the start of last night's highlights program revolved around doping. The general feeling in the peloton was that Pog and Ving are superhuman. 

Looking forward to the Alps

In reply to graeme jackson:

TP needs educating..

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/i-dont-know-what-it-is-tour-de-france-lead...

https://www.ergo-log.com/carbon-monoxide-doping.html

In reply to magma:

https://www.lemonde.fr/en/sports/article/2024/07/17/pogacar-s-impossibly-fa...

Paywall but you get the gist.

In reply to elsewhere:

I'm in France currently and know that live, I can watch on TF1 and Eurosport, but can anyone tell me if there is a highlights programme in the evening like that I can watch at home?

Thanks

In reply to Bingers:

ITV4 highlights are great.

In reply to Bingers:

A mate watches eurosport highlights 8pm so 9pm for you in france.

In reply to Bingers:

Short one from LR:  youtube.com/watch?v=nuxqfxITn4I&

In reply to graeme jackson:

Not so much today; I felt quite sorry for Jonas seeming to crumble on the last climbs

In reply to GrahamD:

Thanks that is what I watch at home, but I'm in France at the moment.

In reply to elsewhere:

Thanks, unfortunately my mother in law doesn't have Eurosport as part of her Orange package.

In reply to felt:

Thanks

difficult decision this morning - ride some 10 km & watch the tour as it climbs to the Col de Manse or watch it on TV & see some of our local roads. In the end went for a ride this morning (already hot) & am now watching the TV. Looking forward to seeing our valley in maybe 30  minutes.

In reply to Bingers:

Do you have mobile roaming data on a UK phone?

I've previously watched ITV4 coverage in Italy, I don't think it worked on hotel wifi but it did work on mobile data. I guess the geoblocking recognised hotel's Italian IP address but my phone showed up as a UK phone provider's network.  

Cadel Evans, seems a nice chap but I can hardly understand a word he says.

In reply to elsewhere:

You were nearly a genius, but it has identified that I am outside of the UK.  Worth a try though.  Thanks

In reply to Bingers:

That sums me up 😭

Carbon Monoxide rebreather for diagnostics and possibly performance enhancement, sounds bizarre!

https://road.cc/content/news/carbon-monoxide-talk-takes-over-tour-de-france...

https://escapecollective.com/exclusive-tour-riders-are-inhaling-carbon-mono...

Impressive finish by Pogacar !

In reply to Doug:

Impressive.  Perfectly timed and executed.  Jonas' lack of conditioning is showing, but a great ride from him and Remco.

All to race for in the KOM.

In reply to Doug:

Pog just taking the p1ss now lol.... makes everyone else look like  cat 3..and left JV sobbing in his wifes bosom . Relentless power

In reply to GrahamD

Has Pogacar won all the mountain finishes so far? I wonder if he's going for a clean sweep.

In reply to Andy Clarke:

From his post-win interview, it sounds like he'd be happy to let a breakaway go tomorrow.

In reply to Andy Clarke:

And then of course take the stage win!

In reply to Andy Clarke:

JV beat him in a 2 up sprint on stage 11, was that a mountain finish?

In reply to Graham M:

That was his bad day everyone has been going on about all tour, unless he has a really bad day tomorrow  ....

In reply to Graham M:

It was a mountain stage, but I think the finish was actually a descent after the final climb.

In reply to Andy Clarke:

That’s right, it wasn’t classed as a mountain top finish which is why the 3km rule was in place, which is why Roglic didn’t loose time when he fell off on that corner in the last km.

In reply to Pedro50:

He's a lot easier than the Yates twins. 

In reply to elsewhere:

Jorgensen, what a knob!

In reply to Maggot:

There's a story there, I guess.  Hard to see the break winning.

In reply to elsewhere:

Well, Pogacar did his best to let the others have a go, but it is a clean sweep of mountain finishes. Amazing recovery from yesterday by Vingegaard.

In reply to Andy Clarke:

For a while I thought Pog might gift him a token stage, as a gesture to his effort after a tough year, but I suppose the yellow monster can't help himself.

In reply to Maggot:

I'm curious about your comment:

"Jorgensen, what a knob!"

I'm not up to date on the nuances of UK slang these days, but are you slagging off Jorgensen?  On what grounds?

He wasn't trying to steal JV's position, or betray his leader, or anything like that.  Sending a couple of strong riders up the road, as Visma did on that day, is a great tactic.  And when it looks like they might be able to get a stage win, the team doing the best to make that happen is good strategy.  I'm sure it was all approved/planned by the management.  It's also a nice gesture and relatively common when a team leader sets his super domestiques free to try to get a stage win here or there, when possible, if their own chances don't look so good.  As far as I know, everybody in the Visma camp, including JV, was just hoping Jorgensen could hold on for the win.  Is there some controversy about that finish that I'm not aware of? 

Jorgensen has rode a superb tour in support of JV.  The moment on the gravel stage when he closed a gap to Pogocar basically earned him his entire year's salary right there.  And his support in the mountains was amazing. 

It would have geen great if he could have taken a stage.  But Jorgensen, like all the rest, just came up against Pogocar's strength. 

Watch out Cav, he's racking up the stage wins fast.

In reply to brunoschull:

I think they are talking about the fact he stole the KOM points which he was going for.

In reply to Glug:

OK, that makes somewhat more sense, but I don't think JV cares a wit about the KOM points.  There's no way Joregenson was flying solo on that move...that was orchestrated, supported, and approved.  I think Visma hoped JV could bridge accross, and then they would have strength in numbers, but JV wasn't strong enough, so they played another card. 

In reply to brunoschull:

Joregenson flicked Carapas by out sprinting him for the one point he could have got on the first hill today. It seemed a bit unnecessary. At the end of the stage Jorgenson said that he didn’t think it right that Carapas was being allowed to take points so easily the day before so decided to make that point hard for him.

Possibly a bit silly on Jorgenson’s part as it’s never a good plan to make enemies in the peloton for no real reason. Now Carapas might flick him when there is a lot more at stake than a single mountain point…

In reply to JLS:

Ah, that makes more sense.  That does seem a bit aggressive.  Perhaps theright thing to do to is just sit back and let the other guy do his job. 

Thanks for the clarification.

Funny story:

This year my old bike racing buddy from university days (thirty years ago) came from the US to Europe to do a family bike tour and then catch two stages of the tour.  He was with his wife and two young sons, who I have not met before.  I drove down to France from Switzerland, where I live with my daugther, and we all spent some time in a chalet in the Alps.  It was great, because I haven't seeneach other in 15 years.

We watched two stages.

On one stage, at the finish in Superdevoley, the kids (8, 10, 14) were lined up on the barricades in the finish straight and the race went straight past.  They were delighted that Carapaz blew his nose as he passed to victory, and that Pogocar attacked right before their eyes to gain a bit of time on JV.

The next day we all cycled down to watch from the side of the road.  As the peleton passesd, Pogocar was fiddling with something in his pocket, and an energy gel flew out and hit my friend's wife in the foot. 

It was a great souveneir, but we weren't sure if we should keep it or eat it.  Pogocar's gel!!!  This kids thought it might give them superpowers. 

Anyway, it was all fun.

By the way, the climb over the Col de Noyer is an amazing bit of road--definitely worthy of a visit if climbing Tour cols is your thing.

In reply to elsewhere:

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-real-science-of-sport-podcast/id1...
 

this is a good listen for more on the carbon monoxide rebreathing. I think these guys nail it for me. The performances are too good , but why? Do the rolled out explanations really cut it? 

In reply to JLS:

seems TP made big mistake..

youtube.com/watch?v=hgJBqYGmlIo&

In reply to magma:

“Don’t give them a reason to hate you.” 

From Armstrong! 🤣

In reply to elsewhere:

Appreciate I'm quite late to the party here but this sounds like a DLCO test which is commonly used in healthcare to assess the diffusing capacity of the lungs and carbon monoxide rebreathing is the main method. Essentially as CO has such high affinity for haemoglobin it never equilibriates between alveolus and pulmonary capillary, meaning a test of uptake is a true test of alveolar diffusion rather than just haemoglobin levels. (source - Intensive Care Doctor, we use DLCO frequently in long term respiratory function testing)

https://derangedphysiology.com/main/cicm-primary-exam/required-reading/resp...

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

An excellent podcast, it's on Spotify too.

Unfortunately it made a bit more cynical about performances.

In reply to Tom Cox:

I think I understand some of that, so thanks!

In reply to Cusco:

Exactly. I can’t even watch him comentating.  

In reply to elsewhere:

In the middle of the TT but what an anti- climax to the three weeks. 

In reply to Cusco:

Let them hate as long as they fear.

Caligula

In reply to Baz P:

That will make 20 anti-climaxes in total then

E

In reply to Enty:

Over 1 minute!!

I know it’s not Paris but as a one off I enjoyed the TT finish…

In reply to elsewhere:

I've followed the tour de France for many years and have seen some amazing performances by individuals, like uncle Lance et al. Pogacar was superb and surgical this tour. Am I cynical in wondering if his superhuman performance was just down to genetics, training and a good team together supporting him?

In reply to Abr:

Yes, and the best man won. The TT and the TDF 2024. Although my heart was with Vingegaard. 

In reply to Matt Podd:

I hope and think you ARE being cynical.

In reply to Matt Podd:

Did you feel the same about Vin last year when he cracked Pog on that mountain stage then totally destroyed him in the time trial (the next day?) taking 1 minute 38 seconds out of Pog (despite staying on his time trial bike the whole way, including accelerating up the final climb of around 8.4% when Pog changed to a road bike at the bottom) and then winning the TdF more than 7 minutes ahead of Pog? Said Vin after that TT:

“My bike computer was showing such high numbers that I thought it wasn’t working,” 

Do you feel the same about Vin this year given the seriousness of his crash and injuries only three months ago, having missed so much training in the lead up to his one off preferred race and, despite all that, the strength of his ride this Tour especially on the mountain stages? The way he and Visma tried to break Pog on (Stage 11?) was so good and strong. 

Do you feel the same about Remco who also beat Pantani’s time up the Plateau de Beille?

If you think they’re cheating, what do you think they are taking or using or doing?

And why do you think they would risk it knowing how stringent the focus and testing is these days following Armstrong?

The same questions to Bjatur too, given his posts above. 

In reply to Cusco:

Do you think they are all 100% clean? There seems to have been a huge improvement in performance over the last few years, forget the smashing of Pantani and Armstrong times from 20 years ago and look how much they have improved over Froome and Valverdi's times from 2015.

In reply to Glug:

The gearing has totally changed and they can spin up mountains. Tyres are faster too. Induration once used a triple chainset in the Pyrenees as he wanted lazy day (as related by one of his mechanics). 

In reply to IainL:

Great to see Cav finished the race and was honoured at the end.

In reply to IainL:

Gearing hasn't changed that much since 2015.

In reply to Glug:

So you’re saying that Pog, Vin and Remco are all cheating?

In reply to Cusco:

I think there is a lot of bending the rules, I don't think those three are just that much better than everyone else, the equipment argument doesn't stand up as all the teams have similar equipment, I think nutrition has been a big part of the improvement, but again I can't see everyone else not using the same regime. Everyone says Pogaca is on another level, that's the same way Armstrong was described, and at the time he was being tested more than any other sportsman.

Are you saying you are 100% sure they are clean?

In reply to Glug:

"If you're not with us then you're against us!"

Have you considered that there might be a massive middle ground inhabited by 'insufficient data to judge'/'don't know either way'?

In reply to Rampart:

Well, Jonas did have the temerity to sprint him out earlier in the race ! And remember a gift to Jonas would have been to deprive Remco of time.  Its just even a consideration.

In reply to Glug:

Whether they are 'clean' or not, they will have been identified for physiology from a much greater pool of riders than in the Armstrong / Pantani  era and will have been honed from a much younger age.

Its probably more constructive to look at what might be happening now with todays methods rather than making what I think are spurious time comparisons with a very different era.

In reply to Marek:

Obviously there is insufficient data to know for sure, but that doesn't stop people having an opinion, I was pretty sure Armstrong was clean at the time because of all the testing, but we all know how that turned out.

In reply to Cusco:

I am not saying they are cheating. I don't know. What I am saying is that it would be pretty dumb to ignore the power numbers and duration that we are seeing day after day that are statistically much better than previous generations who were known dopers , and not have a healthy scepticism (due to the prevalence of cheating in this sport).

To suggest its improved gearing/tyres/aero frames/carb intake/better team work etc ignores the fact that the rest of the peleton have the same advantages - and they are being left for dead on the climbs. 

We now know they use carbon monoxide rebreathers. The teams are telling us that they only use it at the beginning and end of altitude training to measure hemoglobin . But studies are now suggesting that should you continue to micro dose carbon monoxide, it keeps the hemoglobin high when back from altitude training. Currently not banned by WADA as it's a new technique, but looks like it may have similar effects to EPO. Will be interesting to see how this develops. 

Pogs UAE team is run by Mauro Gianetti. When he was DS at Saunier Duval, lots of his riders were all caught doping. There are also accusations around UAE trainer San Millan, he has been associated with lots of caught dopers. But this is all historic and possibly just noise.

Some of JV's performances this tour after such a bad crash 3 months earlier are exceptional. Could be totally legit. 

Yesterday Lance Armstrong comes out and says "If I was Pog I would be keeping a low profile" game recognizes game ? 

Bottom line for me - Any proof they are cheating ? no. Are they cheating? the numbers (and history) suggest possible. Are the explanations for the performances credible? I think they are weak. Do I want it to be legit? 100%

The "fine young Cannibal" is so dominant, nose breathing whilst dropping the worlds best climbers day after day in a team run by some questionable guys will always raise suspicion in this sport. Comes with the territory and to be fair to Pog, he doesn't seem to give a shit...so maybe its all just smoke and there is no fire. Hope so because I spend far too much time watching these guys race.

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

Interesting. Presumably, though, if it prolongs an effect obtained legitimately it isn't quite the same, ethics-wise?

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

It was telling, I thought, that when first asked about this last week Pogaçar pretended not to know what it was, with a flippant remark about car exhausts. Next day, once Vingegaard had said yes, we use it, it’s a simple test, Pogaçar admitted to using it too. If nothing else, it suggests he’s being careful what he tells us.

Completely agree with all this.

In reply to rsc:

I’m perhaps of a different opinion to some others on here. Carbon monoxide breathing isn’t cheating because it isn’t against the rules, it has the same physiological effect as altitude training which isn’t seen as unethical. So what’s the problem?

In reply to ablackett:

I think there's a generic ban on artificially enhancing getting oxygen from air to blood so it might fall under that regulation.

In reply to elsewhere:

Doesn't breathing CO do the polar opposite?

That's why you die!

In reply to elsewhere:

Does artificially enhancing include the use of oxygen tents instead of living and training at altitude?

I'm sure the sports' lawyers will have drawn a line for the teams, a line which they will definitely lean over but not cross, pending evidence to the contrary. As Bradley Wiggins said, "We're all on drugs, it's just a question of whether they're legal."

In reply to Glug:

There is never sufficient data to be sure. We're talking here about insufficient data to be casting aspersions.

Opinions are fine. It's when it turn to mud-slinging-by association (see below) that I have a problem.

In reply to Matt Podd:

It's ridiculous. I've been watching pro cycling for over 40 years and racing in France to a decent amateur standard. I've seen it all, Festina, Lance etc etc. At an amateur level there's even an ex doper turns up to some of our races. It's rife.

In Valencia in March there was an amateur race. When word got round that anti-doping officials were at the start line only 52 out of 182 riders showed up.

On Pla d'Adet in the Pyrenees last week, if Lance, Indurain, Zaskula and Pantani had all lined up against Pogacar, Pogacar would have beaten all the others by 2 and a half minutes. Imagine putting 2.5 minutes into Lance when he was at the height of his EPO scheme.

Pogacar rides past the world's best cyclists like they're standing still then crosses the line not even out of breath. The other day when he rode past Yates, Yates was interviewed a good 20 minutes after the finish and he was still struggling to talk and his chest was heaving.

We've been through all this before and the gullibility of some people is incredible.  Cloud cuckoo land.

E

In reply to Maggot:

That's exactly what I thought, mainly because I hadn't realised the carbon monoxide binding to haemoglobin was reversible.

My possibly incorrect understanding now is...

1. breathe CO (it's desirable that this stage is not fatal)
2. CO binds to haemoglobin for 5-10 hours* simulating a lack of haemoglobin, if done a few times per day it might be like living & training at altitude
3. body produces more haemoglobin boosting(?) the altitude training effect or prolonging(?) it when you go back to sea level 

Do not try this at home.

*a typical patient's carboxyhemoglobin has a half-life around 300 minutes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carboxyhemoglobin#Toxicokinetics:~:text=In%20...

In reply to Enty:

Anecdote - my cousin tells me this happens when his son (an anti-doping official) turns up at amateur races here.

In reply to elsewhere:

nod to the person who came up with CAXXXV logo BTW , love it

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

Yes, I thought that was a brilliant touch.

The thing is, Pog seems to have had the number 36 on his mind...

In reply to Marek:

So do you think they are clean then?

In reply to elsewhere:

he needs 19 more. he won 6 this year which was pretty exceptional. At least 3 more years at that rate, but lets give him 5 years.. he is 25 yrs old....I think good chance he will beat it.

I will caveat that with a lot of people thought Egan Bernal was going to to be the dominant force for the next decade 5 years ago.... nothing is certain in life

In reply to Glug:

I have insufficient data to make any defensible public judgement one way or the other.

In reply to Enty:

Whilst respecting your opinion, we don't know what would actually happen if Tadej lined up against Lance and Marco with no teams and at equivalent fatigue levels.

Also, the fact that people, who you imply are doping, withdraw from events rather than be tested rather implies that testing is effective.

In reply to GrahamD:

You're absolutely right and I can only guess. And my guess is that Pogacar would ride away from them and Pogacar riding away from Lance and Marco at the height of their doping would have everyone on here crying foul. The one other time when I can remember this happening was Damiano Cunego in the mid noughties when older teammate Gilberto Simoni had to keep giving him a bollocking for making it too obvious.
Oh yes there's also Froome too spinning his way up the climbs - every European cycling fan I know was convinced he was doping.

Well yes. They test for the standard stuff that amateurs can afford. To me there's obviously a "new thing" doing the rounds in the pro camps. 

E

In reply to Enty:

The new stuff has to be pretty good if it blows away EPO ! It would be interesting to know what the investigative arm of the ITA are getting, if anything.

In reply to elsewhere:

I see pog has pulled out of the olympics. Does anyone know if the doping controls are the same for the tour as the olympics? He just didn’t look like someone with extreme fatigue, maybe in cycling the prestige of the grand tours is just more than the Olympics. 

In reply to monkey man:

JV has ruled out the Vuelta. So Pog maybe thinking going for the Holy Trinity. He should beat Roglic …. Only problem I s keeping his team happy as they just get the scraps. Almeida prob fancies a shot at Vuelta himself 

In reply to monkey man:

Or perhaps it’s got nothing to do with drug testing stringency but rather because the World Championship in September, and the chance to be only the third man achieve the Triple Crown, is more important to him than an Olympic road race in only 12 days after two grand tours back to back? 

“The 25-year-old has previously won one-day classics including the Tour of Flanders, the Giro di Lombardia and Liège-Bastogne-Liège. He was one of the favourites, alongside Dutchman Mathieu van der Poel, for the Olympic road race, a gruelling 225km course in and around the French capital on 3 August.

The defending Olympic champion, Richard Carapaz – who also won the mountains classification at this year’s Tour de France – was not selected by Ecuador.

Having become the first man to win the Giro and Tour in the same season since Marco Pantani in 1998, Pogacar’s next target is likely to be the world road race championship in September.

Pogacar has no intention of tackling the Vuelta a España this year, even with the prospect of completing an unprecedented hat-trick in the three Grand Tours. “For sure it crossed my mind to do the Vuelta, people tell you to go do this or that,” Pogacar said. “But I’m trying to let it go in one ear and out the other.”

Instead, Pogacar is aiming to land the “triple crown” of cycling by adding the world road race title in Zürich. The Slovenian finished third last year as Van der Poel took gold and the coveted rainbow jersey in Glasgow.

“For me, putting a cherry on top of this season would be to have a really nice August, to relax a bit, to prepare well for the world championships and then give it my all there,” Pogacar added. “I know that Mathieu looks good in the rainbow jersey, but I want to take it from him.”

The triple crown of Giro, Tour and world road race title has only been achieved twice in men’s cycling, by Eddy Merckx in 1974 and Ireland’s Stephen Roche in 1987.”

In reply to Cusco:

Ah yeah, fair enough, thanks!

In reply to monkey man:

Its probably all to do with his spat with Slovenian cycling over the non selection of his partner for the women's team.

And he probably is a bit knackered too.

In reply to Enty:

something like https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/marine-worm-haemoglobin-could-be-the-new-f...

?

In reply to magma:

Carbon Monoxide and lugworm haemoglobin -  that's two very unexpected types of potential doping I'd never heard of.

Hopefully intensive care doctors and their suppliers of therapeutics can give a heads up to WADA on developments, I think that's the area of medicine where the oxygen->bloodstream therapeutics originate.

I agree about the origin of (some) products, but the doctors and the suppliers of the therapeutics are the ones that profit from selling and distributing medicine.  Many doctors have been implicated, and if I remember correctly, one of the manufacturers of the first synthetic EPO pushed back against attaching and easily recognizable marker to their product, obviously because it would cut into illicit sales.  Same story/different details for all the steroid products used by Sky, Wiggins, Froome et al.

Yes, of course, the PED drug market is much smaller than the general medicine marker, but because of the prices athletes are willing to pay, individual doctors/suppliers can make a great deal of money.